Hey Garmin: YOU’RE FIRED!

[Jazzman-K]

I would like to thank all of the posters on both the Zumo XT and XT2 forums. You have saved me a lot of money! I have owned an older Garmin GPS, two versions of the BMW Navigator, and now the Zumo XT. Every one of them has driven me nuts!! Each one has “rerouted” me away from important riding opportunities that I missed because the GPS recalculated the route to what IT wanted, but not what I want!! (The only reason for Garmin’s existence is to do what I WANT!!).

Garmin is simply not getting the message: your hardware is the best on the market, but your software has been consistently problematic for years! You should know this but you don’t fix the root problems. Basecamp was awful (good riddance to bad rubbish!), but Tread is no better and much less intuitive. The inability to set up a series of points and not have any of the GPS’s recalculate my route into something that isn’t even close to what I designed should have been fixed years ago!

Garmin’s absolute unwillingness to “play nice” with other programs that produce GPX files, the generally awful customer support, and the constant claims that “the engineers designed it to do that” even when the result is clearly awful all lead me to one unavoidable conclusion: Enough!! I was going to give Garmin one more chance and buy the XT2, but after reading all your posts on the continuation of the very well known and documented routing issues, I have decided to save my money. I am not going to buy another Garmin product until their engineers fix their existing software issues. So Garmin, YOU’RE FIRED!

So Garmin, how do you earn my business again?

First, fire any computer programmer that does not already ride a bike. No exceptions. Your designers seem to write products like they have never even used a GPS program or ridden a motorcycle.

Second, have you ever seen the iPhone iMaps program? Currently, for me, this is a much better GPS than Garmin, albeit with far fewer features. But at least it does what it says it will do, and if I decide to throw it a curve (both literally and figuratively) it adapts without screwing up all my previous planning!

Third, I could not care less about what your programmers think I want to do with MY GPS. I want to do what I WANT TO DO!! If I set up a series of waypoints, I want the GPS to follow them! No exceptions, not trying to be smarter than me, not always forcing the fastest route. DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD! If I want the fastest route I will ask for it. Otherwise, shut up and map the route! Then if I set up something that turns out wrong, it is on me. Right now, everything that goes wrong gets blamed on you. (And rightfully so!).

Fourth, everything in the GPS should be optional. I should be able to turn on what I want, turn off what I don’t want, and have the unit look and behave like I want it to. When your engineers are riding their bikes, they can set it up in whatever way they want! Until then, make everything optional because we clearly do not want the same things in our GPS units!

Finally, I am tired of being a “product”. Stop collecting data on everything I do, everywhere I go, and selling it to the top bidder. Other than your greed, You have no need to know or collect much of anything about me, how I use the product, etc. The default in your “agreement” should be “WE DON’T COLLECT ANYTHING ON YOU WITHOUT YOUR EXPRESSED WRITTEN IN INK APPROVAL. PERIOD!” Frankly none of my information should be useable by you for any reason. I am not your product, I am your customer, and YOU HAVE PISSED ME OFF!

So GARMIN, What are you going to do or say to us, your former customers that will not longer buy your products?

[jfheath]

Welcome to the forum Jazzman-k

I've severely edited your first post to this forum - I've kept the original for review. There are some very heartfelt comments in there but also some statements which could get you or us into trouble. (Now included with a few italicised edits)

We do like to share our concerns, but generally with complaints, we address them to Garmin Support, or find ways around the issues.

I wanted to acknowledge your first post to the forum, but I am still editing the contentious allegations, to keep us all safe.

[jfheath]

I would like to thank all of the posters on both the Zumo XT and XT2 forums. You have saved me a lot of money! I have owned an older Garmin GPS, two versions of the BMW Navigator, and now the Zumo XT. Every one of them has driven me nuts!! Each one has “rerouted” me away from important riding opportunities that I missed because the GPS recalculated the route to what IT wanted, but not what I want!! (The only reason for Garmin’s existence is to do what I WANT!!).

I remember taking Garmin up on an offer of a 590 to trade in my 660. It was a good deal, but for the first few weeks it drove me nuts too. But that was not the fault of the 590, that was largely to do with me not understanding. Garmin's documentation is aimed at getting people working. "To turn the Zumo on, press the On switch" is not something that I have read in a Garmin manual, but the level of simplicity may sound familiar.

But I disagree with your statement completely. The Nav V was based on the 590 and I still regard the 590 as being the best, most predictable and most reliable satnav for navigation. It does exactly what you expect it to do if you know how to use Shaping Points and Via Points appropriately. The 595 comes a close second but introduced some things that were issues for me - but it is still a good unit when you know what they are.

Your last statement is incorrect. They do not exist to do what You want. They produce software that cater for the majority of users. There will be people who just want to get to a destination, and they do that extremely well. They also provide point to point navigation, but it is then up to the user to know what will happen if they miss a route point. They provide the tools to enable you to plot the route that you want - but you have to know how to use them.

They have a pretty good customer support service. Most problems that people have - from the limited cross section that I have seen on here and in talking and helping other users face to face - are user error or lack of knowledge. The misplaced via point is a classic example, as is the start point which is never visited. Also the general awareness that if you wander off route the Zumo has got to do something about that. All Zumos have the user set option to do nothing, and all have the option to recalculate the route using basic settings like faster or shorter.

Garmin is simply not getting the message: your hardware is the best on the market, but your software has been consistently problematic for years! You should know this but you don’t fix the root problems. Basecamp was awful (good riddance to bad rubbish!), but Tread is no better and much less intuitive.

More people need to give them quality feedback. They cannot be expected to work with statements like that. In any case the problems that we have seen are quite specific. Basecamp was not rubbish. In my opinion it was, and still is, the best route planning software that is available. It works extremely well with the Zumos up to the XT1, and still works with the XT2 at the same level of planning. But the XT2 provides a lot of additional features that Basecamp cannot provide.

Tread for the XT2 is excellent for route planning. It offers a lot of the tools that you seem to require. For the first time in a Zumo you can set different routing preferences for each individual segment of a route, and you can ask it to take into account different kinds of motorcycling roads when routing. eg Michelin scenic, popular riding roads ..... All calculated and drawn on the map to make it easy to choose. That info is passed between the Tread app and th XT2 - so wherever you create the route, it is reproduced faithfully in the other locations - tread / xt2. The trip planner on the XT2 reproduces all if the features available in the app.

The inability to set up a series of points and not have any of the GPS’s recalculate my route into something that isn’t even close to what I designed should have been fixed years ago!

That is typically down to the route planning. All Zumos will take the route exactly as it was planned in Basecamp, providing you have auto recalc turned off. Exactly. On the XT2, you also have to disable the tread app. Swipe it off the phone's screen. But the tools and the controls are there. If you dont want it to recalculate, turn it off. If you deviate from the route, you are then on your own but your original route stays in place. If you want it to recalculate, then you have to think about what it will do and set shaping points accordingly. Most Zumos will display a track if the route as well as the route itself. The track stays in place even if the route is recalculated. You are entirely in charge of what roads you ride. If the Garmin recalculates and misses a road that you wanted to ride, that may be your fault, it may be circumstances (reported road closure), it may be a fault in the planning. But if you don't get to ride it, it cannot be blamed on Garmin. You are in charge of where you go, not the Zumo.

The XT introduced some weird behaviour for imported routes which has not been fully addressed in the XT2. But there are simple solutions to those problems

Garmin’s absolute unwillingness to “play nice” with other programs that produce GPX files, the generally awful customer support, and the constant claims that “the engineers designed it to do that” even when the result is clearly awful all lead me to one unavoidable conclusion: Enough!!

I don't understand that statement. Garmin is exceptionally good at reading gpx files from any source and stripping out the tagged statements which it doesn't recognise, and processing the rest. Exactly what the gpx format is intended to facilitate.

The 'designed to do that' statement, we have to take at face value. I have never had that comment without it being made by someone who has been in touch with the people who know. Example - shaping points are relocated. People use different maps because they don't like Basecamp. People are not careful about placing points exactly on the map. People expect the Zumo to place the point where they intended to put it, rather than where they actually put it. So I guess that Garmin try to cater for that. This is the middle of a field. What is nearby? Goes and looks in a database. Ah yes the A1234. I'll place it on that. It is a built in feature, and I have no problem with that. It has been there since the 595

They seem to be desperately trying to make the satnav usable for people that can't be bothered to plan things 'properly' or who to prefer to live their life attached to a tiny 4" x 2" screen where a single finger press could be anywhere within 1 square mile.

Look at the tread app. Tap a point in the map. There is a 'nearby' facility, and it lists all if the things that it finds for you to select from.
What it doesn't do is allow you to relocate a point.

I'm still learning the XT2. It has many good points. I can stop a route getting into a RUT scenario. I can stop it from moving my shaping points that were carefully placed in Basecamp. I can make good use of the Tread app, particularly if I use the ipad.

I was going to give Garmin one more chance and buy the XT2, but after reading all your posts on the continuation of the very well known and documented routing issues, I have decided to save my money. I am not going to buy another Garmin product until their engineers fix their existing software issues. So Garmin, YOU’RE FIRED!

Entirely your choice. I quite enjoy the puzzle. I've still got my 590, 595, XT and XT2. The Xt2 is the one I use when I know where I am going. If I am relying on the Zumo to follow an unknown route then I have the XT1 as backup.

I'll make you an offer. You send me a route that you have planned as a gpx file. Tell me which satnav you were using and which roads it failed to take you along. I'll tell you why and what you could have done to prevent it.


Regarding the missing second half of your post. That was mainly a rant at Garmin. You need to talk to Garmin about your concerns. We are here as a platform to help people share information, to help people with their Zumos, and to provide a forum where people are able to ask questions.

You didn't ask any questions, but I addressed the points that you raised anyway.

[VeeBee]

Garmin devices can indeed sometimes be frustrating; they’re complicated beasts but there is a lot going on between the software and hardware and the connected devices. In my experience it’s usually user error or misunderstanding which causes issues. Something I’m guilty of. We know what we want to do, but the Garmin software interprets it differently or in its own way. We need to change to understand the Garmin and how it works, it can’t change.

I think Garmin is nowhere near as intuitive as Apple Carplay or Android Auto based devices but Garmin doesn’t rely on a phone to route, so not really the same. I’ve tried TomTom, which again in my opinion is more intuitive, but somehow lacking, so I use Garmin. There’s a learning curve, specially on the XT2 compared to pre XT devices.

If you intend on moving away from Garmin, probably DMD (drive mode dashboard) may suit you. They’re expensive but I’ve heard people who have them love them. I’ve never used one, I’m ok with my XT2, which does more than I make use of.

I’d take John up on his offer of checking your GPX route file.

[proofresistant]

I agree almost with Jazzman-K.

Unfortunately, this time I can't agree with JFHEATH' s answers at all.
Assume that you are a normal user, not a Garmin expert and without a Garmin degree. And if you simply want to follow a route, however planned, you will have unexpected problems that you have never encountered before in your life.

And no, in my opinion many problems are not user errors, but unnecessary requirements of the Garmin devices. What simply works with almost any other software or any other device quickly leads to absolute frustration with Garmin devices.

Even the well-known Garmin tip to switch off route recalculation is, in my opinion, complete madness. I have planned a route with all the associated route and sharpening points. The sat nav should simply follow it and, if I leave the route, get me back on track, no more and no less.
The fact that the calculation of a route then depends on where you are or where the waypoints are set is also a nogo in my eyes. The device is supposed to take me to the points and if that doesn't work 100%, then to the vicinity and point me in the right direction from there.

I also think the quality of customer feedback is questionable. Garmin has experience, more than almost anyone else, that's why you buy a Garmin.

And last but not least, a navigation system has to do what I want it to do, in any case, what I want it to do based on the possible parameters.
As an example, although not really comparable, the correct result must also come out in Excel according to a formula based on the values I specify.

By the way, why does Garmin need such good support? In my opinion, many problems are homemade and shouldn't really exist. Never before have I had a tool that costs too much time in terms of investment compared to the little added value of the result.

[Peobody]

I mostly agree with @proofresistant. I differentiate in that I think, first and foremost, a navigation system should get you to your destination (or destinations in the case of a multi-point route). I wholeheartedly believe however that if a navigation system excepts a predefined route it should never deviate from that route. Should the device be told to skip a route point in a predefined route, navigation to the closest entry point beyond the skipped point is a reasonable expectation. Instead, Garmin has decided to recalculate the entire remainder of the route. That is difficult to understand and accept.

[jfheath]

I think some of my points have been mis-understood - but I'm not going to re-iterate. It is quite a good discussion that @Jazzman-K has stirred up with his first post.

I've had the time now to review the second half of his first post and with a few minor changes (in italics) it is posted in its entirity in post #1.

[Oop North John]

Up to, and including the 590, the Garmin sat navs behaved in a manner that seemed logical to most, once you understood a few basic rules. Since then the hoops you have to jump through to get a route that seems sensible = what a 590 etc would have produced, has increased.

Until recently, from the SP3 to 595 I never thought about having to have a track to show where I'd planned to go, as the route did that and for 99.9999% of the time followed the same route as Mapsource / Basecamp.

The increasingly complex Garmin sat navs don't seem to have had manuals that (a) tell you anything other than how to switch it on / open up the programs on them (b) get updated after the initial issue.

If I was a cynic, I'd guess that Garmin see the motorbike side of the business as an unwanted distraction, and so have reduced the efforts to fix problems, or even acknowledge that real life users don't think that they're the best thing since sliced bread.

[danham]

I don't criticize others for having a different point of view. If Basecamp and the XT are not doing what you want, just because they serve me well does not mean you are wrong.

However, I would urge critics to take a look at other complex devices they own and see if Garmin is better, worse, or the same in terms of being easy to use and responding to user needs. How many rider mode settings does your bike have and do you know in detail what each means in terms of suspension, throttle response, braking and cornering?

Put another way, it is not possible to have your cake and eat it too. If you want numerous options to be able to set your XT to behave exactly the way you like, this means complex menus and seemingly unpredictable changes to behavior based on which combination of settings you have chosen. It would be a lot easier if menus and settings were dumbed down to simply provide A to B routes. Garmin sells some devices like this and they work great in the mini-van hauling kids to soccer practice. They are not suitable for motorcycle exploration.

If I were going to agree with the critics on one point, it is nomenclature. Given the XT's complexity, wouldn't it be nice if Garmin settled on one consistent definition of terms such as waypoint, route point, via, or shaping point? All of a sudden, settings and documentation would make sense.

-dan

[proofresistant]

1.
if the XT2 at least had complex menus in which you could choose that the XT2 does what I was planning before.

2.
even complex menus can be intuitively well structured

3. a few menus with points that you really need as a biker would be enough for me:
3a )
Profiles for: fast arrival - no tight curves for cruisers -
unpaved roads for off-road tours - lots of bends.
And no, this can but doesn't have to be part of the planning, because if I get into bad weather or it takes longer than expected, I don't want to have to make “complicated” changes to my plans.
3b)
share a tour from sat nav to sat nav via bluetooth, just like the XT has always done.
3c)
make the touch buttons big enough so that you can use them while cycling with gloves on and don't always miss, as if you wanted to select new destinations.
3d)
Switch off street names that are always displayed at the top, which usually doesn't mean much to me at least. (maybe I just haven't found where to set this yet)
3e)
A setting that the position arrow also reliably shows where you are and in which direction, not where Zumo assumes it to be based on the route plan.

PS
Basecamp is a very good tool, I agree. But unfortunately not for the normal user, there are many other programs with comparable output that are much easier to use.
In any case, Basecamp lacks a combined satellite view and a symmetrical view of the map without the usual consideration of latitude.

PPS
The hardware of the XT2 is great, without a doubt, including the track navigation.
But honestly, if Garmin doesn't manage to implement my route planning without ifs and buts and that everything gets to the XT2 wirelessly, this will be my first and forever my last experiment with Garmin.