Routing errors (again) - any idea of a point of contact that may care ?

[sussamb]

As I don't have a XT I can't add anything about the XT behaviour but having re-checked the routes in BaseCamp with avoid tolls selected I still don't get the behaviour mentioned via Petersfield so I can't see it being a toll issue

[jfheath]

No - thats what I found. There is no setting in routing preferences that duplicates in Basecamp the routes that the XT produces. But turning on and off toll roads seems to force a change. But it is consistent between our devices. It might be worth trying it with my 595, to see if that does the same with the same maps. It has to be a red herring, or some other step that I go through when changing the setting for toll roads. I need to reset my device and start with a blank sheet.

I'm going to have to sleep on this with it all bubbling around in my head, see what my brain can come up with without my interference. That trick often works !!

[Scottnet]

Thanks. The route south is actually what happened to me during the ride. This is why I started doing these tests.

You asked if this is important. It's important because after having done around 120k miles with my zumo 660, all around the world I had an expectation that the XT would be an improvement. I have found that in core routing it is in fact much worse.

In my experience with the XT after it recalculates a route while on the go, it comes up with some very odd routing.

From friends and other reports it seems I am not alone in this.

So in trying to improve the overall routing my objective was to find a reproducible test that garmin could investigate. If they did identify and fix the algorithm then it would improve things overall.

So that's why it's important. Does this make sense?

[jfheath]

Sure - it makes sense.

I'm not ready to jump to that conclusion about the routing yet. I've not tried anything new today since the last message. But I don't like randomness. Unless it is programmed in, computers do not do random. There has to be a set of circumstances. I checked my daily profile on the XT, and it has built up quite a log. Not as detailed as I thought it would be, but there is still a fair amount of info in there. I still don't know if it is maps or the XT. I thought I'd see if my 595 did the same thing with the same maps. It does a few other things the same as the XT, but different from the 590. I can switch it to a 590 and try that. Unfortunately I no longer have my 660 - and the mapping was set up differently then anyway.

Another weird example I had - it took me ages to crack becasue it appeared to be a random fault. The XT has a Closest Entry Point feature. It did all sorts of weird things when it first came out. It didn't do what it does now. V2.30 headed direct to the nearest Via Point, not the nearest point on the route. A later update had it going to the nearest point of any sort. Sometimes. Turned out it was only selecting Via points but only the shaping points that had first been created as Waypoints. (it was as if the programmes didn't know what a waypoint was). That was fixed in the next update so it headed for the nearest route point of any sort. So that was progress. Eventually with v2.90 they got it right.

But then I discovered odd behaviour. It would take me back tot eh beginning of a route if I had already started it. On one occasion when in the Norht of Scotland, it missed out all of the route until it got into the lake district. On another (simulation), I had a local yorkshire route, and it was trying to take me down to Wolverhampton area before heading back north. This is Closest Entry Point, remember ?

It was while asleep that I was dreamin about it - why did it take me down there before it turned round and came back up ? Why didn't it turn round earlier. The comic book light bulb above my head woke me up. It couldn't turn round.

It is the U turn settings. If it thinks the bike is facing the wrong way becasue it has just been turned on and I haven't started moving - if it cannot do a U turn, it has to find the closest entry point by heading off in the wrong direction.

It works perfectly if you allow U turns. All of my failed tests worked when I tried them again.

It'll take time, but I'll crack this one. Or have a breakdown myself !!

[Scottnet]

Thanks. I agree on random, I am a software developer so I understand the value of a reproducible test case.

I did try it on my 660 with 2012 maps and it works fine.

Would it make sense for you to raise this with garmin now so they could possibly investigate in parallel?

I would be interested in the response you get from them

[Scottnet]

An interesting observation. With tolls set to Avoid, so as to force the error, if you change B to a shaping point it works correctly.

Hmmm

[jfheath]

That is interesting. Did you do this on the XT ? The XT has a habit of moving points if you change them from a Via Point to a Shaping Point. It tends to put them on the fastest route. It might be just relocating the point and recalculating that has fixed that problem. But it doesn't explain the issue with the A to C route if toll road settings are changed (although I think that is still a red herring).

This is a fault that I reported to Garmin over a year ago. They have acknowledged it, reproduced it and it is in the list of things to do.

I have just tried 6 tests. A to C, B to C and A to B to C. All 3 with and with toll roads allowed. All 3 with the faulty Point B. All 3 recalculated and recalculated again. All 6 tests did not show the issue and produced the correct west to east route.
But this was on the 595 running 2021.30 maps.

I've tried loading the maps that I copied when I first got my XT. (I copied the entire contents of the internal memory). Except apparently, I didn't. My CN Europe NTU 2020.20 All North map is missing. I don't know how that can have happened. I'll see if they were in another folder on my original XT.

When I have done that, I'll try updating my 595 to the latest maps (I've already taken a copy of the maps that are there now), and see if that reproduces the problem. I have already tried installing the 2021.30 maps that are on my 595 onto the XT. But it says it can't validate them.

[Edit]

Ok - I found the 2020.20 North maps for the XT. They do exactly the same as before with the 2022.10 maps.
And if you change B to a shaping point - yes, it moves and renames it as I expected - it moves it back west a tad to a small cross roads. What that proves, I don't know.

See how the update for the 595 does if I can get it to update the maps to 2022.10 . This will be interesting - because the 595 does everything correctly with the 2021.30 maps - which come after the 2020.10 maps which the Zumo XT is getting wrong. This willt ake a few hours to download I expect - but I can use the time trying to get my XT back to the state that it was before ! There's also the issue of whether it is personal profiles affecting the routing - which really requires a reset.

[Edit 2]

Ok - The 595 with the latest maps (same maps as the XT) did everything correctly - with and without recalculation, tolls allowed or avoided.

That really suggests that it has nothing to do with the maps. More to do with something about the XT. Either the navigation software, or the data that is stored in the XT - so I have just reset mine to factory condition. I've also created a Test B2 point which is accurately placed - as that has made a difference in a number of tests - incluidng when made into a shaping point, it was placed on the road. We shall see. I have 22 separate tests to carry out.

[Scottnet]

Thanks for the perseverance. I have always suspected this as a software error.

Looking forward to seeing the results

[jfheath]

Slow Progress, but definite progress. But I have a query - something odd that I noticed.

When you set your Navigation preferences for Tolls, you see menus one after the other - like these.

Tolls Menu 01.png (19.15 KiB) Viewed 1341 times

Tolls Menu 02.png (9.75 KiB) Viewed 1341 times

Tolls Menu 03.png (10.83 KiB) Viewed 1341 times

I have some rather odd questions.

1) Does your XT show the current settings of Avoid or Allow underneath the caption in the places I have highlighted in red ?
ie If the current setting is Avoid, does it show 'Avoid' where I have highlighted.

2) Are your settings made for Motorcycle and Car individually. ie If you have Set 'Avoid' for Motorcycle and 'Allow' for Car, when you switch back to motorcycle mode, does it remember that you toll road preference should be 'Avoid'.

3)Is your XT set up to use link to the Explore Website? ie if you click Where To -> Explore, does it show a screen inviting to you to Cancel or Connect Now. If it does, it isn't connected to the Explore website.

4) It is possible to disconnect from Explore. So has it ever been connected to the Explore website? (At least since the last factory reset).

5) Is your XT connected to a smartphone through the Drive App on the phone ?

6) Finally - I think I am going nuts. Do your routes do different things at different times ?

[Scottnet]

Some answers.
1. Yes
2. Yes it remembers different settings for car and bike
3.no
4. Never been connected
5 no
6. Not that I have noticed

Cheers