The peculiar case of the disappearing tracks. XT & 595

[lkraus]

I agree that waypoints imported as part of a route should not be automatic Favorites. Favorites should only be points individually selected for retention. It makes more sense to put route waypoints in Recents, and delete them if the route is deleted. Maybe provide a "wrench" option to transfer them from Recent to Favorites.

[jfheath]

I agree that waypoints imported as part of a route should not be automatic Favorites. Favorites should only be points individually selected for retention. It makes more sense to put route waypoints in Recents, and delete them if the route is deleted. Maybe provide a "wrench" option to transfer them from Recent to Favorites.

I think there is still confusion here. I don't know what else to say to make this clear, but I'll try.

For Garmin Devices and Basecamp, a Waypoint is a location that has been created and stored. It exists in its own right, and may (or may not) be added to a route - when it will be set as either a Via Point or as a Shaping Point.

You have full control over which route points from Basecamp go into Favourites.

If you create a Waypoint in Basecamp - ie a location that you specifically create with the Waypoint Flag tool and save it, then that Waypoint will appear in the Zumo Favourites. The fact that you have saved it as such suggest that you want to keep it. Other route points are not saved in the same way and will not appear in Favourites. If you don't want it in Favourites, do not create it as a Saved Waypoint.

You may include that Waypoint in a route if you wish, or it can be transferred to the Zumo as a separate item. In both cases, the Waypoint will be picked up by the Zumo and made accessible in the Favourites App. (In USA this is called the 'Saved' App).

Route points that were not created as Waypoints will not appear in the Favourites App. They are not Waypoints, so they are not Favourites either. There is an easy way to check whether or not a route point was created and saved as a Waypoint. Waypoints appear in the lower left window in Basecamp along with routes and tracks.

Many routing programs and many users use the term 'waypoint' in a different way - for them, a waypoint is simply a point in a route. But this is a Garmin Zumo User forum, so I use Garmin's definitions. This is not Garmin being awkward - they were here before many others, but the terms appear to have come from the GPX file standards where <rtept> and <wpt> are defined separately. Garmin's BC Waypoints appear in the gpx file as <wpt> other BC route points as <rtept>. <wpt> entries have additional properties and are picked up for the Favourites app.

nb - I use the term 'Saved Waypoint' a number of times to emphasise the fact that a 'Waypoint' is saved. It is tautology - ie the word 'saved' is unnecessary. Waypoints for Garmin are always saved. But the term 'waypoint' is often used to suggest any route point saved or not.


A Question to illustrate the above.

Below is a screen shot of a simple route that I have prepared.
The information to answer the questions is in the image and in the text above.

Right click the image and select "Open in a new window" to get a larger, clearer view that you can move to one side.

How many route points ?
How many Via Points ?
How many Shaping points ?
How many Waypoints ?
How many would appear in XT's Favourites ?

A Quiz Route.jpg (163.73 KiB) Viewed 2336 times

You don't have to answer, but feel free if you want to - or drop me a PM. I'll reply by PM

I'll post the answer later.

[Peobody]

I agree that waypoints imported as part of a route should not be automatic Favorites. Favorites should only be points individually selected for retention. It makes more sense to put route waypoints in Recents, and delete them if the route is deleted. Maybe provide a "wrench" option to transfer them from Recent to Favorites.

@lkraus, you get me.

You have full control over which route points from Basecamp go into Favourites.

I disagree. I don't know of a way to add a POI to a route without it being a waypoint which then ends up in Favourites whether I want it there or not.

As for the quiz...

How many route points ?
If talking about the number of Points as listed in the route summary, no way to know.
If talking about the sum of Via and Shaping points then 5

How many Via Points ?
3 including Start and End

How many Shaping points ?
2

How many Waypoints ?
0

How many would appear in XT's Favourites ?
0

[FrankB]

No - these separate GPX files are not safe - including shared files and files transferred by Garmin Drive - which end up as GPX file saved in exactly the same place.

@jfheath Because I use primarily Garmin Drive App transfers, I thought I would run a quick test. Basically it confirms your findings.

- I have a GPX file containing 3 Waypoints, 4 Routes and 4 Tracks that I send via Garmin Drive App.
- I transfers OK. I have 3 'Saved locations', 4 trips and 4 Tracks.
- When I connect the XT to my PC , I see the 'Current.gpx', and a 'Shared from Phone...Gpx'
- Current does NOT contain any Tracks, the 'Shared from Phone' DOES, it looks unaltered to me.
- If, on the XT, I try to import again, the Waypoints and Trips are found, but no Tracks... (So Tracks are not available for Import, but not deleted from the Shared from phone...GPX)

Beware when you send the original GPX (with a few modifications) again. There will be yet another 'Shared from Phone...gpx' containing the same route/track/waypoint names. (provided you dont change the names)
All data will be listed twice when you try to import. How will you know which one to import?

That is why I never use the import function. Tracks are never available, and Waypoints/Routes are listed in all available GPX, and are possibly duplicated.

[jfheath]

- I have a GPX file containing 3 Waypoints, 4 Routes and 4 Tracks that I send via Garmin Drive App.
- I transfers OK. I have 3 'Saved locations', 4 trips and 4 Tracks.
- When I connect the XT to my PC , I see the 'Current.gpx', and a 'Shared from Phone...Gpx'
- Current does NOT contain any Tracks, the 'Shared from Phone' DOES, it looks unaltered to me.
- If, on the XT, I try to import again, the Waypoints and Trips are found, but no Tracks... (So Tracks are not available for Import, but not deleted from the Shared from phone...GPX)

Beware when you send the original GPX (with a few modifications) again. There will be yet another 'Shared from Phone...gpx' containing the same route/track/waypoint names. (provided you dont change the names)
All data will be listed twice when you try to import. How will you know which one to import?

That is why I never use the import function. Tracks are never available, and Waypoints/Routes are listed in all available GPX, and are possibly duplicated.

Hmmm. Glad at least you were able to confirm some of it.

For me - Tracks disappeared from all gpx files in internal storage - but I did not attempt it by sharing from phone.
I didn't mention in my first post, but I saw favourites disappear on one occasion - not just hidden - they had gone. However, I have just been testing that again - and I cannot make them disappear no matter what I do on the XT. So that is good. It must have been a glitch - or I saw it on the 595. I'll check that out.

Tracks do not get removed if you save them to the SD card - either by creating a GPX file and placing it on the SD card with file manager (Garmin/GPX), or by sending the selected item from BC to the ZumoXT/SD option. But you don't have that option when using Drive.

I disagree. I don't know of a way to add a POI to a route without it being a waypoint which then ends up in Favourites whether I want it there or not.

Do you mean POI ? I haven't messed around with creating POI files (and uploading with POI loader) since I had my 550. I was curious about the proximity alert and the sound .wav file that you could get it to play when you got closer than a specified value from the location. A bit like speed cameras, I suppose. Great fun at the time. I was considering using them for a treasure hunt for the club - grabbing points that they just happened to come across - but it was possible to get hold of the file and read its contents to see where each location was, and I couldn't find a way to hide that. I've not touched them since.

But I guess that they would appear in routes as Waypoint. Your statement suggests that is the case - you access a POI and it is treated like a WP s it appears in favourites.

Hmmm. There may be a way, the Import facility has a search feature which I have just been experimenting with. Next month for this presentation, I have some practical exercises, and I was aware that people are going to have Zumos full of all sorts of clutter, and I want them to import the ones that I have created for them. So all of my Waypoints / Favourites start with Ex.
So Where To->Favourites->Import->Mag Glass->Enter 'Ex' and only the items with Ex at the start of their name pop up. Select All, and everyone gets just the ones that I want them to be using. Except those who have been down to Exeter recently.

Or - you use the WP / POI on the BC map to mark the spot, and then drop a normal point next to it ?

No - its not ideal. I think I use mine differently. Because of all of the testing and experimenting, my Zumo is nearly always reset to zero. All of my routes, waypoints, tracks are in the organised datbase structure and I use that to export what I want, when I want it.
I have a new BC database for each year and use a list folder for one trip, and divide that into separate lists - one for each day of the trip. If I want waypoints from previous years - I copy them across. Which sort of makes a mockery of having a properly normalised database structure where data items are stored only once. But it keeps thing contained. The number of times I lost data in the early days of Basecamp ....
It doesn't have that problem now, but I still cant bear to put everything in one place. Too cumbersome.

Oh - Happy Christmas.

[jfheath]

The answer to the quiz:

Vias 3 (Penrith, Start and End)
Shaping Points 2 (Alston. and A686...)
Waypoints 1 (Alston.)
Favourites 1 (Alston.)

[Peobody]

But I guess that they would appear in routes as Waypoint. Your statement suggests that is the case - you access a POI and it is treated like a WP s it appears in favourites.

Exactly. I create routes with Basecamp in medium detail and use the search function to find food, fuel, and lodging in selected areas. Once a decision is made on one, I right-click > Add to route. They are added as waypoints. On occasion I will increase the detail and look for what shows up along a stretch of road. The only way to add one of those to a route is right-click > create a waypoint and then add that waypoint to the route. As you know, I plan almost every stop in my trips. At the end of a multi-day trip I have a lot of "Favourites" to clean up. I am not saying that this is difficult to do, I just don't understand the reasoning behind every waypoint being set as Favourite.

Thanks for the Christmas greeting. Same to y'all.

[FrankB]

To All:
Merry Christmas and happy Zumo'ing in the new year.

[FrankB]

Hmmm. Glad at least you were able to confirm some of it.

Hi John, Thats not how I see it. I think I confirmed all of it. But....

Tracks behave different from Trips. Think of the Tracks App like it works directly on the GPX files in 'Internal Storage'.
- Put a GPX file containing tracks in 'Internal Storage/Gpx'. The tracks will be available rightaway in the Tracks App when you power up the XT. No need to import.
- Delete a Track from the Tracks App. The track in the GPX will be deleted also. (And that's something I did not do in my test, and I assume you did delete)
- A track will not be deleted from a GPX file, unless you delete it from the Tracks App.
- Remove a GPX file from 'Internal storage/Gpx' and the tracks will be gone from the Tracks App.
- Because the Tracks App is a 'mirror' of the 'Internal storage/Gpx' directory, it's only logical you cant import from it.
- etc...

For Routes/Trips we know that a .trip file has to be created in 'Internal Storage/.system/trips'. So that works differently.

Did not test Waypoints/Favourites/Saved places or whatever they're called.

Enough... Dont let this ruin your Christmas.

[jfheath]

Enough... Dont let this ruin your Christmas.

I won't but Call the Midwife has just come on - so I have a self imposed 1 hour exile to the study.

That is exactly what I saw too - except it is very different if you place the GPX on the SD card. Delete the tracks, they are always there to import again.