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ok, I have prepared an example which shows that BaseCamp is not (always) compatible with XT 2.

The route “r3 NL Nij Rat 130km_BC_(not_OK).gpx” was planned and calculated in BaseCamp. XT2 cannot calculate it

Then I really invested a lot of effort and edited it in XT2 until it could be calculated by XT2. This route “r3 NL Nij Rat 130km_XT2-TT-BC_(OK)” can now also be imported into BaseCamp and saved there again and will then continue to be accepted by XT2.

The cause in this case was not gravel roads as I suspected. The cause was sharpening points. The positioning of sharpening points is a critical factor. They don't just have to be on a road, apparently there are also strict road sections where they can be placed, whatever they may be.

Here is what I think happens. I believe that there are two stages - but I am still working on it.

Basecamp Imports Route.

• The XT2 will take a basecamp route as it stands - using the Via Points and Shaping Points
• It approximates the route point to ensure the coordinates match a known location
• It recalculates a route based on the route points *** Still looking to see if it can be convinced to keep the original. The XT1 does.

Only if the Tread App is open on the phone :
(ie on the screen), even if not the currently selected App

• The route is synched with the Tread App on the phone
• The tread app uses the existing via points to plot a new route using its routing preferences
• Shaping points are moved onto the new route
• Because the App has changed the route, the XT2 receives the modified route when it synchs.

This is what I have observed so far, and your description supports that behaviour - if not my explanation.

I'd be interested to see what happens if you clear everything out from XT2 and from Tread app, and repeat, but this time do not have the Tread App open. So swipe it off the screen. It is still there on your phone, but the trip planner is not loaded.

It's confusing.
The more I look into the issue, the more confused I get.

The r3 NL Nij Rat 130km_BC_(not_OK).gpx seems to be a good example of issues with sharpening points.

Yesterday I had calculated the route in BC and imported it via the Tread app.
The route could not be opened in XT2.
And the route cannot be edited in the Tread app.

Today I deactivated the Bluetooth Tread connection in the XT2.
Then imported the route into the XT2 via SD card.
(The frustration is the wait after the reboot and the long import time)
But then the route could be opened and calculated in the XT2.
Now I was pleased.

Bluetooth connection to Tread app reactivated, Tread app did not change route.
Maybe because the Tread app can't edit the route at all. Why sometimes the Tread app cannot edit XT2 routes is really a different topic.

So far so good.
Then exported the route again via SD and compared it in Basecamp.
At first glance, I didn't find any changes.
Only the GPX files are different, the original had more accurate and slightly different coordinates for the waypoints. and the subclasses were of course also different.

Now it's getting exciting. This route exported from the XT2 has now been loaded into the Tread app with Bluetooth activated and arrived in the XT2 after synchronization.
Again the route could not be opened in the XT.

If I do the whole thing with points changed from sharpening in VIA, then it works.

Conclusion
Tread App changes sharpening points
Tread App moves sharpening points

XT2 recalculates BaseCamp routes
XT2 has (sometimes) unknown restrictions for the placement of sharpening points.

@proofresistant
I think it is important in these discussions to separate, as you have done here, what the XT2 is doing and what Tread is doing.

Conclusion
Tread App changes sharpening points
Tread App moves sharpening points

Yes I have had the same experience. See https://www.zumouserforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3007
I would encourage you, and others, to report this to Garmin support. I have an ongoing dialog with them and they say they are looking into it, but the more customers they hear from, the higher priority the issue will be.

@jfheath

Only if the Tread App is open on the phone :

This may vary by phone type? On my Samsung (Android) phone, Tread runs in the background and syncs even when it is not on screen and is "closed".

Right - tonight's test has produced different results.

Tonight out of each of 7 separate tests in 3 different situations (no BT connection, BT but tread not loaded on phone, Everything set up as intended - BT and Tread working. I got identical results in all 21 tests. Route stays intact, shaping points stay in the original position - with minor adjustments which are of no consequence.

Yet the other day when I did the same test, the route imported and it lost the shaping point, significantly changing the route.

I think someone is working on this ...? I've got screenshots and notes. I'll post tomorrow.

I agree about reporting it to Garmin. I like to go in with all of the facts, so that there is no wriggle room. Even then from experience, they fob you off and say that something is happening and then they 'go on holiday' (twice). It needs a lot of people to complain about it.

But when the facts change ...

I need to repeat the same tests as today on a different route.

OK - sorted.

The route will NOT alter the position of shaping points / via points (much) if the GPX files are placed on the SD card/GArmin/GPX folder

AND

The Tread App is disabled before they are imported.

(The SD card isn't a requirement that I know of. It's just that the XT2 cannot alter them if they are placed on the SD card )

As soon as the tread app is enabled on the iphone or the Android, then the route is synched to the Tread app, the Tread app changes the route and sends it back to the XT2. When the route is selected, the XT2 recalculates it. This seems to involve ignoring the shaping points, plotting the faster route between Via points, and then placing shaping point(s) so that they sit on the newly calculated route.

However, this doesn't happen If you don't wake up the Tread App. That is true for:

• Basecamp produced GPX files
• BC produced gpx files with the Subclass fields stripped out.
• Routes from anywhere with start stop and one shaping point
• Routes from anywhere with Start Stop and two shaping points.
• Identical route imported into the tread app, exported as a gpx file and loaded in the same way as any other gpx file.
• Identical route exported as a gpx from MyRouteApp.

It is not true for:

• Direct Routes - ie straight lines. The shaping points stay where they are.
• A route with a start, stop and Via points. The via points retain their name and stay where they are.

On the Android , the app can be left installed and running - as long as it does not show on the screen - ie it has to have been swiped off the screen. This means it is still running to process messages, traffic, weather, Group rides. But the BT connection still shows the Tread icon in blue. I have left the XT / phone in this state, repeatedly trying to synch and failing for a couple of hours without the route being altered. As soon as I open the tread app on the phone, it synchs and the route is changed a d the shaping points are moved.

The iPad - as soon as you swipe it off the screen - nothing is running and the Tread logo disappears from the XT2. The route remains intact. I don't know if there are any settings that will enable Tread to continue to run in the background for its other features. I know that the notification settings are controlled by the iOS software, rather than by the Tread app as is the case on the Android. I only have an iPad - not an iphone - so I cannot test most stuff.

Today, 3 weeks after sending a query to Garmin, I got a reply from Product Support about this. They want lots of information and evidence. I'll post it on here - probably a new thread - when I get that together. I had already started.

I've got to go back and check all this out with @proofresistant's routes and observations. But I'm fairly sure. I've been fairly sure before though, so I'll check anyway !

smfollen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:43 pm

Only if the Tread App is open on the phone :

This may vary by phone type? On my Samsung (Android) phone, Tread runs in the background and syncs even when it is not on screen and is "closed".

Hi. I noted this comment and was a bit concerned - because it was not what I observed so in my testing described above I repeated all of the tests a number of times. I am wondering if I have missed something ?

Once set up the experiments are very quick to carry out - it just requires thee route to be selected and the preview map inspected. The changes after synch show up there. I checked that out. If after synch the route is loaded and run, the XT2 also recalculates the route - but so far the preview map has been a good indicator. So I tried with various permission settings for the apps. Settings - Apps - Tread - data usage. At present ' allow background data usage' and 'allow data usage when data saver is in' are bith turned off. In that state text messages were still getting through to the phone. emails, i am not sure about. But neither of these setting altered the behaviour of synchronisation.

I am unsure what 'running in the background' means. I think it is when the app is installed but hasn't been loaded onto the screen. Or it may mean when the screen is locked ??


Synch takes place if the tread app is open and on the screen, if the screen is locked - ie if you have to reenter your pass code.

Synch takes place if the app is open - even if it is not the app that is showing on the screen. If it is showing as one of the apps after pressing the 3 line button at the bottom, it will still synch.

Synch does not take place if Tread has been swiped off the screen.


In the last state, the XT2 still shows the synching message, the orange synch icons and the blue rotating circles when it is trying to synch. And it does this just more than once per minute. But it fails - the route never changes and new data does not get to the tread app.

You can check the last statement by turning off BT at the phone and then opening the tread app. It doesn't contain the new info - so it hadn't synched. Then close the tread app, and make sure it is swiped off the top if the screen. Then restore BT.
If you don't turn off BT the act of opening the Tread app will result in synch taking place, so you will get a false impression.

Hi @jfheath ,

My current experiences match yours.
1. In collaboration with the Tread app Shaping points are changed in routes, regardless of where the route comes from
2. XT2 alone seems ok, Shaping Points stay where they should.
3. Start and End and Via Points also remain correct, even the Tread App does not change them (significantly).
4. Calculation profile Direct Connections also leaves Shaping Points unchanged.

The only thing I'm no longer interested in is when the Tread app breaks my routes, which seems to vary from phone to phone.
Don't misunderstand, your experiences are important, but the Tread app should leave my shaping points alone and that in any condition.
During the tests I got into the habit of switching off the Bluetooth Tread connection in the XT2, then the Tread app can't work either.

Now I'm going to finish my preparations. I'll try reproducible tests and report back. Then I'll send it to Garmin support.
My new *WK* GPX Route coming soon, I'm working on a new one that shows issues even faster.

Last but not least, I will not make any further comments on this topic,
I'll continue writing in @smfollen thread “Tread Changes Exisiting Routes - Shaping Point Issues” https://www.zumouserforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3007
See you there again ok?

Ok. I'll lock this thread now.

Yesterday (Wed) I established that the Tread app on the Android continues to pass on email, text, weather, phone call and traffic information even though the Tread app was not on the screen. I cannot confirm this for the iphone.

I lodged a query about this issue 3 weeks ago. I got a reply on Tuesday 1 Oct wanting more details, so I now have a case number. That reply and evidence will go to them today.