Is this RUT?

[Peobody]

Rest assured that, thanks to all the help that I am getting here, I am learning. Slowly - but I am learning.

It is indeed a slow process that seems to have not end. I don't think any of use admit to having total control of what the devices do, and then just when you think you have a handle on it something will happen that will throw you for a loop. The most recent for me was a recalc triggered by a road closure. The resulting route was not rideable, containing a bunch of zigzagging direct points.

[jfheath]

Given a straight forward route where you start it, pass through the start point, all of your vias and shaping points are well place - the XT2 does a much better job of the routing than the XT.

The XT had a few faults that I regarded as serious, and I had to find the circumstances when I could guarantee that they could reproduce the behaviour. I was told that the issue was passed on to the development team nothing ever came of it. The problem still exists in the XT and it appears to be there in the XT2 as well.

So I even doubt that it was ever passed on, and that tech support were possibly just saying stuff to shut me up for another month. When I suggested politely that the development team were doing the same to tech support - how would they know ? They went quiet.


But we have solutions for trouble free routing.

Never press Skip unless you have no alternative. Better to stop the route and restart it with Closest Entry Point
Always produce a track of your route and display that as well as the route. The track will never alter.
Make sure your points are accurately placed on roads.
Put your start point in a location that you will pass through after you have started moving. The Zumo will take you to it.

Routes imported from outside ? Like Basecamp . Take a copy of the route using the XT2 copy function, give it a new name and use that.
This makes the XTs believe that the route was created on the Zumo itself - and it behaves impeccably even if you press skip.
Ive yet to confirm this last statement but Infully expect it to behave like the XT.


Use Via points sparingly - points that you will definitely pass through eg your coffee / lunch breaks. Use shaping points for the rest.

Put routes on the memory card. They will always be there untouched if you need to delete routes and reimport them. The same is not true if you put them into internal storage.

[jfheath]

Given a straight forward route where you start it, pass through the start point, all of your vias and shaping points are well place - the XT2 does a much better job of the routing than the XT.

The XT had a few faults that I regarded as serious, and I had to find the circumstances when I could guarantee that they could reproduce the behaviour. I was told that the issue was passed on to the development team nothing ever came of it. The problem still exists in the XT and it appears to be there in the XT2 as well.

So I even doubt that it was ever passed on, and that tech support were possibly just saying stuff to shut me up for another month. When I suggested politely that the development team were doing the same to tech support - how would they know ? They went quiet.


But we have solutions for trouble free routing.

Never press Skip unless you have no alternative. Better to stop the route and restart it with Closest Entry Point
Always produce a track of your route and display that as well as the route. The track will never alter.
Make sure your points are accurately placed on roads.
Put your start point in a location that you will pass through after you have started moving. The Zumo will take you to it.

Routes imported from outside ? Like Basecamp . Take a copy of the route using the XT2 copy function, give it a new name and use that.
This makes the XTs believe that the route was created on the Zumo itself - and it behaves impeccably even if you press skip.
Ive yet to confirm this last statement but Infully expect it to behave like the XT.

Use Via points sparingly - points that you will definitely pass through eg your coffee / lunch breaks. Use shaping points for the rest.

Put routes on the memory card. They will always be there untouched if you need to delete routes and reimport them. The same is not true if you put them into internal storage.

[gwilki]

@jfheath Thanks much for this. For me, I guess the issue is your advice to "Put your start point in a location that you will pass through after you have started moving. The Zumo will take you to it." In this latest test run, I believed that I did exactly that. Logically, it should have worked. I would have turned onto Campeau going west, onto Terry Fox going south and pass through my start point.

The problem is that is not what the Xt2 did. Instead, it took me east on Campeau, south on Egleson to the 417 on ramp, then west on 417 to Terry Fox. Then it took me south on Terry Fox. The problem is that the start point was north on Terry Fox from that off ramp location. So, it simply ignored the start point altogether and took me south on Terry Fox to the end point.

So, not to be argumentative, but I put my start point in a location that anyone would conclude I would pass through. To get from where I was when I started navigating to the start point was a direct shot west and south. It was not only the shortest distance but the fastest time. Instead, the XT2 took a longer and slower route, and in doing so, missed the start point.

This test had only a start and end point. No other shaping or via points at all.

[Oop North John]

@jfheath Thanks much for this. For me, I guess the issue is your advice to "Put your start point in a location that you will pass through after you have started moving. The Zumo will take you to it." In this latest test run, I believed that I did exactly that. Logically, it should have worked. I would have turned onto Campeau going west, onto Terry Fox going south and pass through my start point.

The problem is that is not what the Xt2 did. Instead, it took me east on Campeau, south on Egleson to the 417 on ramp, then west on 417 to Terry Fox. Then it took me south on Terry Fox. The problem is that the start point was north on Terry Fox from that off ramp location. So, it simply ignored the start point altogether and took me south on Terry Fox to the end point.

So, not to be argumentative, but I put my start point in a location that anyone would conclude I would pass through. To get from where I was when I started navigating to the start point was a direct shot west and south. It was not only the shortest distance but the fastest time. Instead, the XT2 took a longer and slower route, and in doing so, missed the start point.

This test had only a start and end point. No other shaping or via points at all.

It is not unknown for the mapping to have errors.

When I was doing my own RUT tests there was one point near to where I work where I was seeing strange routing. Turned out that the XT's mapping was treating one road as if it had a barrier across it. Unfortunately the XT didn't show this barrier so I just cursed it, rather than the mapping which was faulty.

Short end, I'd suggest that you try another route, in a different place using different roads, otherwise you're just proving that the XT / mapping / you have an unfixed bug each time.

[jfheath]

That is a good call @Oop North John . We have a rat run near us - any build up of traffic in the main road, vehicles turn off and use this very narrow, car lined, steep hill as if it was a main road. Locals got fed up of accidents - the front door of their houses open onto a narrow footpath. I have to use it to get out - the only other exit is a blind junction. Then suddenly, my satnav stopped navigating down that road. I investigated that by looking at the OSM site where you can contribute to the addition of detail to the map. Someone has closed that road off half way down. I could have corrected it, but it is probably better as it is.
Garmin use acknowledge their use of OSM data on the credit screen.

@gwilki . Can you see what happens when you bring the start point closer to home. Say 50 yards away - so the you still pass through it - but earlier.

I have evidence in the middle of a route that in certain circumstances, a route point is removed from a route if you ignore instructions that will take you to it. When you start a riding a route, the green flag is where you are now, the original start point becomes just another via point ( or so it seems from some screen captures I have).

I normally provoke RUT behaviour by skipping an earlier route point. The route recalculates and it is then different in nature. Any deviation after that may result in RUT behaviour. But others on the forum have commented that RUT has been observed without pressing skip.

I am still wondering about this 'counting' of u-turns and missed instruction. Does the XT2 switch modes according to your behaviour.

I imagine the numskull inside the head of the XT2 thinking something along the lines of ... "Ok, I keep trying to get you to follow the route, but you keep ignoring my instructions. I'm supposed to be getting you to the end eventually, so I will just take you there and issue instruction to get you back onto the original route at the closest point in the route - and that may mean heading straight for the end".

I have seen this a lot on the XT, but have not noticed it on the XT2.


Take a look at this screen shot.

Ignore Route Screen Shot.png (1.85 MiB) Viewed 1020 times

This screen shot of part of a route applies to both of the following videos. I am on a side road just before the roundabout. I have loaded a route and I am following it, having previously skipped a route point that I had placed close to the start (so that I could skip it !). I ulled over to get some the above screen shot.

It shows me stopped on a side road immediately ahed of the roundabout. Note that when I am not moving, the satnav doesn't know which way I am facing !! I am actually facing South - but I was facing that way a few seconds before I stopped moving.

The planned route is shown by the magenta line. There is a Shaping Point on the magenta line after the roundabout and before the village of Addingham. I need to take the second exit to go through that Shaping Point. The third exit at the roundabout is the A65 (we go around rouandabouts clockwise in the UK) - a fast 60mph road which by-passes Addingham. It joins up with the magenta route in the bottom right hand corner of the screen shot - and there is a shaping point just after that - so I pass through that shaping point whichever route I take.

Both videos show what happens when I take the 3rd exit (A65) road at the roundabout instead of following the route to the 2nd exit.

The only difference in the videos is the the first one shows what I regard as 'correct' behaviour. What the Zumo 590 would have done. It has been created using the Zumo Trip Planner using stored Waypoints (from Zumos Favourites). The Zumo regards this as a 'Saved' route.

The second video shows a route that uses the same waypoints. Not copies. The same ones. The route has been create din Basecamp, transferred to the Zumo XT and then Imported. The Zumo XT regards this as an "Imported Route". I drive the same route doing the same things in both videos.

Video #1 - This is a Zumo XT running a route that has been created and saved on the XT screen.
It is a "Saved Route", and I have previously skipped a route point.

Note what the XT does. The shaping point stays in place, and at the at the next opportunity it intends to turn left and go back to the shaping point near Addingham - even thought he rest of the route is clearly plotted ahead. You can see this if you freeze the video at 20 seconds. The shaping point at Addingham is still present. It is important to realise that there are two sections of route here - the first section leading to the first (Addingham) shaping point, and the second section leading from the Addingham shaping point to the A65 shaping point. I am on the first section, so it has to double back to pick up the missed Shaping Point. When I ignore that instruction, I joint up with the second section - and because I have missed only a shaping point - it is happy to continue navigation ahead. At 43 seconds - just before the junction, the next via point is 3.2 miles ahead - it takes into account the distance back to the missed shaping point and back. At 45 seconds, the same Via point is 1.3 miles ahead - it is no longer planning to go back to that first shaping point.







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Video #2. The same route, but this time the video has been created in Basecamp.
It is an "Imported Route." I have previously skipped a route point - same as before.


Before you start the video, notice where the shaping point is. The two videos show the same route, and I do nothing different. Notice what happens when I take the third exit from the roundabout and at 17 seconds and after when the screen Zooms out to show Addingham and the next A65 Shaping point up ahead - the first shaping point at Addingham has disappeared.







Later on, there is an off route Via Point. It is plotted in a field, so I have no chance of reaching it. The first test (not show on the video - but I have it if you want it) it repeatedly tries to get to that Via Point. I go past and have to turn back. I go past again, I have to turn back again. In the second test (not shown), it directs me to go across the field, but when I ignore it, it navigates me ahead along the rest of the route - just as if it was a shaping point that I had missed.

Pressing Skip (or otherwise causing an imported route to be recalculated) causes the navigation system to behave differently.



I am wondering if onthe XT2, multiple refusals to follow instructions also change the nature of the route in a similar manner.

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Can I suggest. Create the same route on the XT2. First create 2 waypoints for the start and end by tapping on the map to create a flag . If its wrong, zoom in, tap again. When it is accurately placed, save it. The XT2 will probably expect you to assign it to a collection. Remember which one you put it in. Unorganised will do !

Then create one for the end in the same way.

Then go to route planner to create a route. It gives you the map planner. The 'start' button will be white. Tap on the search magnifying glass and find your new waypoint from the list and select that. The white 'start' button will now say 'stop'. Magnifying glass, find your end waypoint that you saved and select that. The route will draw on the map. Accept it and save it. it will probably want you to assign it to a collection. Choose the same collection as before. Then check you can load the route.

This route will probably behave differently. If it behaves in exactly the same way, then I reckon that is a candidate for @Oop North John's mapping error. But I think it WILL behave, because I reckon that your disappearing start point is significant - and suggests to me that your route is behaving like Video 2. Building the route on the XT2 itself will (like the XT) make that route behave in the way that my Saved Route behaved - Video 1.

[rbentnail]

Reporting back.

Thanks in no small part to all the help that I've gotten here, I managed to complete a loop route without the unit telling me make a u-turn.

There is one strange (to me, at least) thing, though. I am attaching a screencap. The arrow is pointing to where I selected the route and told the Zuno to go and start from the nearest point. You can see the start of the route to the left and down from that point. However, the first instruction the Zumo issued was to turn right at the first corner. This would have taken me in the opposite direction from the start point. I ignored the instruction and after a couple of bad instructions, it told me to turn left onto Terry Fox Drive, which is where the start point is.

I supposed that I should have followed the instruction to see where it would have taken me. If doing that will help with any advice you can give me, I can do that tomorrow.

In the meantime, can anyone tell me why the Zumo is taking me in the wrong direction?

Thank you

perth_ride.jpg

Why are you picking "closest entry point" instead of picking the start point of the route? The directions you get (go to the nearest road with the fastest speed limit) may be the same but I've never understood why people feel the need to complicate things from the get-go.

[jfheath]

Updated my previous post - just before the last one from @rbentnail

Videos and explanation are now included. It is a suggested explanation for why you might be seeing this behaviour.

Ignore if it is getting too involved. I find this stuff interesting - I like to know the causes so I can find an answer.

Russ's (@rbentnail's answer is the obvious and easiest one - don't use Closest Entry Point for the start of a route - which is what I suggested was the reason earlier on. But if you want to know why - then that earlier post is my best shot at an answer - based on the XT. But since the XT2 is behaving in a similar manner .... it may well apply. I would be interested in anything that you find out as a result.

[gwilki]

@jfheath I have not yet watched your videos, but will very shortly.

@rbentnail I wanted to address your advice directly. I just got back from the same route. The short one that simply starts on Terry Fox and runs south. Previously, I had chosen "closest point" as my start point. This time, as you instructed, I chose "terry fox", which was the start point. I had the choice of closest, terry fox or the end point.

Now, keep in mind that the shortest and fastest route to the start point from where I was parked is west on Campeau for 2km, then south on Terry Fox. The start point is about 200 metres from that turn. This time, as on previous tries, the xt2 took me east on campeau for 1.5 km to eagleson. From there, it took me onto the 417 west for 2 km to the Terry Fox off ramp. Now, using "closest point" from here it took me south on Terry Fox, ignored the start point completely and kept going south on Terry Fox until the end point. This time, using Terry Fox as the start, it turned me north on Terry Fox. Now I was going toward the start point, but going the wrong way. Right away, it said that I had arrived at Terry Fox. Then it said to make a U turn in 200 metres. I did so, and it finally got me to the start point and the onward.

So, I suppose in the minds of Garmin, this was an improvement over the route that ignored the start point. I'm not sure that I would call driving twice the distance necessary and having to make a u-turn on a 4 lane, 70kph road an improvement.

[jfheath]

I'm just trying to rebuild your route. I can't see where you have mentioned where the end point is (Approx would do). I quess somewhere further West of Palladium Drive. I'll put in the most westerly roundabout on Palladium Drive