Trip Planner Routes

[FrankB]

I know that this post is about trips (routes) and not tracks, but just to confirm.

I agree that trips are Sorted on date/time, but Tracks are sorted on proximity.
This is something to keep in mind when you start a trip and want to display the corresponding track (with the same name as the trip) on the map. Because the sorting for Trips is different as for Tracks, I always have a hard time finding what I need.

[Peobody]

I know that this post is about trips (routes) and not tracks, but just to confirm.

I agree that trips are Sorted on date/time, but Tracks are sorted on proximity.

Yes, Tracks are sorted on proximity, actually showing the distance and direction to their starting point.
If Trips (what we have been calling "routes") are sorted by date/time, what date/time is being used? We have confirmed that trips configured with a future departure date/time get placed below those without a departure date in Trip Planner. The ones with a departure date are then sorted by departure date/time. The challenge is figuring out what gives trips without a departure date precedence over ones with a departure date. The next challenge is figuring how their sort order is determined.

At the risk of repeating myself, I want to make clear that for me, all of the trips are listed in Trip Planner as "saved" because they have all had the mimport bit fix applied.

[FrankB]

If Trips (what we have been calling "routes") are sorted by date/time, what date/time is being used?

The .trip files have, for every Shaping/Via/Begin and End point, a field called 'mArrival'. This field is set to nonzero if a BC route has the departure date/time set. Unfortunately it is 4 byte HEX field, and holds some kind of date format. Yet to be decoded.
Sample: Hex value: 0x40 DF C8 F8 equals 2024-06-27 09:30:00
So, Not very useful I think.

How the trips that dont have a departure date/time are sorted, I really dont know, Maybe it's just 'undefined'. I did a small test this morning and could not find the logic.

At the risk of repeating myself, I want to make clear that for me, all of the trips are listed in Trip Planner as "saved" because they have all had the mimport bit fix applied.

Will send you a PM, how you can do that. Without having to worry about sorting.

[jfheath]

I was looking at the 590 Trip Display for comparison. That has the Forthcoming trips listed - each trip has a tear-off-calendar style display (eg May 1). Below that are listed 'Past Trips' again with date icons. Below that are unscheduled trips in no discernible order (although the three I have happen to be in alphabetical. The 590 has a facility to edit arrival / departure time and that allows you to set the time and the date. The 595 and XT only allow the time to be set. However, when you set the time, it seems to apply todays date - because it brings it up to the top of the list !

Still not tried this with the mImported byte set. Nb the mImport byte also existed on the 595 route .trip files. Although .trip files also existed on the 590, the mImported byte wasn't present in the ones that I looked at.

[jfheath]

Which Date / Time field is used ?

Here is an extract of one of my test routes. Two date/time values are set.

The first - after the <rtept> tag (2nd line) - I think is the date and time that the route point was created. 22nd April 12:26

The second is the Departure Time inside the ViaPoint definition (the start point is always a Via). This is the one that is set within Basecamp. 1st April 2024 midnight (although I think I set it to 1:00 am - must be correcet for Daylight saving). This is the one that the sort order seems to use.

<rtept lat="53.22601318359375" lon="-4.1363525390625">
<time>2024-04-22T05:16:26Z</time>
<name>Bangor</name>
<sym>City (Small)</sym>
<extensions>
<trp:ViaPoint>
<trp:DepartureTime>2024-04-01T00:00:00Z</trp:DepartureTime>
<trp:CalculationMode>FasterTime</trp:CalculationMode>
<trp:ElevationMode>Standard</trp:ElevationMode>
</trp:ViaPoint>

However, I note that when I set the time using the XT screen, it seems to apply the current date and the time that I specify - which brings it up to the top of the list.

Still not set the mImported byte to zero. I'm about to do that.

[jfheath]

OK, All of my test routes have had the mImported byte set to 0 - therefore 'Saved'

No change in the behaviour of the order of routes.
I manually edited one of my un-timed routes to set the time - just by using the edit schedule option. I set it to 1:11. It then appeared immediately after the April routes (all set for 1st April) and immedately before the May routes (set for 1st May).

I know this because I put the month at the end of each route name.

The entry in Current.gpx has changed to include a Departure Time
<name>Keswick</name>
<extensions>
<trp:ViaPoint><trp:DepartureTime>2024-04-24T00:11:00Z</trp:DepartureTime>

The entire <trp:DepartureTime> tag was not there before I set the time.

(Note the time is set as 0:11 - Daylight saving time again)

The mArrival bytes in the .trip file may be a red herring as far as this is concerned.

Via points are stored with data about each leg - one of which is arrival time. In Basecamp you can set certain timing information for Via Points - so for example, you can set an arrival time for a Via in the middle of the route. It will work out the timing for the other Via - including suggesting a start time !

If you look at the route list in the Trip Planner App, it includes the timings and mileage for each section of the route - shown alongside the Via point at the end of the section.

If you look at Spanner->View Turns from the displayed route list, it shows the same data, this time at the heading to each section - mileage and timing. Edit the schedule for one point, the times change for the others.

I think that the .trip files are ther to pull out important information about aroute so that the Zumo doesn't have to trawl through the gpx file to find it. It is all there in succinct form to help speed up processing.

So I think mArrival is to do with the calculated arrival at each of the Via Points in the route, and have nothing to do with the order in which routes are displayed.

[jfheath]

Summary. If you want a particualr route to appear near the top of the list, and you haven't set a date, then you still have to find it in the list of Saved Trips.

Select the route. Tap Spanner->Edit Schedule

Choose the point to which you wish to assign a time. Select a time and Save.

This sets the date as today, but sets the time as whatever you want. If you set a few as 1:00, 2:00,3:00 etc - then they will appear in that order.

[Peobody]

Choose the point to which you wish to assign a time. Select a time and Save.

This sets the date as today, but sets the time as whatever you want. If you set a few as 1:00, 2:00,3:00 etc - then they will appear in that order.

So, my inquiring mind wonders what happens to there sort order tomorrow. I don't care whether this is answered because I think you have determined that there is no easy way to control the sort order of trips in the XT Trip Planner app.

BTW, I have been trying to use the word "trip" instead of "route" but I'm struggling with it. I see myself saying something like "a 5 day trip made up of 5 trips" and that just doesn't make any sense. I hope those who think in Garmin speak will get over it if I switch back to "route".

[jfheath]

So, my inquiring mind wonders what happens to their sort order tomorrow.

If you use the on screen time allocation, the sort order will remain the same based on the time.
If you set the time for more routes on another day, then the date on which you set the time will come into effect.

I don't care whether this is answered because I think you have determined that there is no easy way to control the sort order of trips in the XT Trip Planner app.

Except by allocating a date in BC or time on the XT.
I keep only the routes that I want for my expedition on the XT. I don't keep the old ones on there. They are stored in BC databases. I usually put the date number at the front of the name to help in identification. That in itself doesn't help with sorting.


I'm not saying this is a good solution. I'm working with what there is. I'd never really spotted it as a problem. I liked the 590 way of presenting routes so I got into the habit of setting the departure date and time. I was perplexed as to why the XT and 595 screen removed the date option.

BTW, I have been trying to use the word "trip" instead of "route" but I'm struggling with it. I see myself saying something like "a 5 day trip made up of 5 trips" and that just doesn't make any sense. I hope those who think in Garmin speak will get over it if I switch back to "route".

I know what you mean. I tried to get to terms with it so that I was using the correct words. I decided that ther needed to be a distinction between the sequence of points that you plan and the magenta lind that is calculated.

Basecamp uses its Trip Planner App for creating multi-day journeys.

On the XT is called the Trip Planner App. So it made sense to me that you plan a Trip, but you follow a route. I adopted that terminology for a while. But that didn't reconcile with the word 'trip' used for converting a track to a trip - it creates a magenta line that you follow, but has no route points. So I started calling that a track-trip to get way from that confusion.

Then I started wondering If I had it the wrong way round, and pondered that for a while.

Then I wondered if there was something to do with the american pronunciation of route -- rowt, which really grates with me when I see videos. We pronounce it as 'root' and don't break into giggles when we hear it because of the other meanings of that word. I couldn't believe that as a reason.

I decided that Garmin didn't have a definition, and that two parts of the same company had adopted two words to mean almost the same thing, without spotting that the words had been used previously in a different context.

I notes with interest that the XT2 doesn't have a trip planner app. Shock horror.

It has a route planner app, which looks identical.

But has it retained the 'Convert a track to a trip' feature to make the distinction between track and trip clear ?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that, cos I found a reference. But I dont trust my memory. Ill come back to that.
edit. I haven't found that reference yet, but I found another one:

In the "Tracback" app, the XT has te option 'Save as Trip'. The XT2 has "Save as Route"

It seems that Garmin have yet to make up their mind.

People say trip. People say route. We know what they mean - usually. But if like in this case, there is a mention of creating a trip in Basecamp, The BC trip planner app is a very different beast from the XT trip planner app.

[Peobody]

Then I wondered if there was something to do with the american pronunciation of route -- rowt, which really grates with me when I see videos. We pronounce it as 'root' and don't break into giggles when we hear it because of the other meanings of that word.

I pronounce it 'root' and 'rowt'. I never know which one is going to come out of my mouth. I guess I don't know which pronunciation is correct so my mind gives them equal billing.

Regard 'trip' vs 'route', I recall a previous discussion about them in which I proclaimed something to the effect that a trip was a single riding event consisting of a single or multiple routes. Attempts to deviate from that have not set well so I'm back to it.