Zumo User Forums

@jfheath , I'll certainly be in touch with Garmin once I've fully got to grips with any workarounds. I can confirm that if you swipe away Tread from an iPhone, it stops communicating with the unit altogether so not the best solution if you want all that it gives. Another topic I'm keen on is 'Traffic', specifically road closures and why it automatically re-routes you with no option to prevent it unless you turn Traffic off altogether. I digress.

Another solution I've found if Tread messes with any of your routes is to re-import them to the Collection and start navigation straight away. So, for this you'll probably be best with a fairly tidy Explore Collection and it will only work if you have transferred the routes to the XT2 via cable (and then not done another cable transfer subsequently). Simply delete the corrupt route from the XT2 Routes Collection, stay in that menu and re-import, check it overlays your Track, 'Start' and ride away before Tread gets a chance to mess with it. I don't think Tread will mess with an active route but happy to be corrected. Always have your Track visible.

Of course, you can forget all of this if you're not bothered about Via points. Either just follow your Track, similar to map reading or convert Track to Route and you still get guidance. I think in that instance, you'll need to switch auto-recalculate to 'Off' or 'Prompted' otherwise you will be re-routed to the finish point.

It seems Garmin wants Tread to be the cloud engine of the XT2 and at the moment, the whole shebang depends upon Tread/Explore approving your routes. It would be nice if there was a 'do not sync' button for imported files as I quite like the Explore Collections idea and the ability to make them visible or not. Garmin originally invented the gpx1.2 file to stop routes being changed. The unit is happy with 1.2 but Tread is not, maybe that could change?

I'm currently focused on the short term issue of working with Tread to get what I want. For now, my plan will be to do as in my first post and make sure Tread is happy with what I've planned by adding extra shaping points where needed then a cable transfer at home. If I build a MRA route when away from home, I'm then totally in the hands of Tread to sync and transfer but the same idea. Whilst experimenting this way, I've not had my routes changed or shaping points moved. So far!

One thing I have yet to do is build a complex route on Tread. It seems far too much like hard work getting your points exactly where you want them and putting them in the correct order. I'll save that for minor deviations. Also, most of my riding buddies are on MRA so they can easily grab any of my planned routes. I'm so far the only one with an XT2.

Now, about that road closure issue

As Jon has said, PLEASE report this problem to Garmin at Product.Support@garmin.com.

I have had a dialog with Garmin support going for a month so far. The issue is getting low priority because other users are not reporting it. Here are just a few bits of what support is saying:

"...I have sent your case up to my engineers"

"Feel free to encourage any friends on the forums to reach out to us directly. Again, it will only help them."

"I just wanted to prepare you that I have searched the entire world and you are the only person reporting this issue to us through the channels we provide for reporting any issues. I will share the results of my testing with my engineers, but given the low report rate, I wanted you to be set up with an accurate expectation."

"... I will warn you that investigating this may take quite some time and it may not be addressed ..."

I know I am not the only one in the world, since Jon has also reported this issue but they need to hear from many more users.

This tread has 40 posts and more than 8,000 views. Clearly more users than Jon and I care about the issue.

PLEASE tell Product.Support@garmin.com that the Tread app changes existing and imported routes because the Tread / Explore sync ignores shaping points.

There are a number of posts on this forum complaining that Garmin support doesn't listen. Garmin support is telling us that more users need to speak up so that they will listen. You don't have to be an expert - I am certainly not. You don't have to have all the answers or extensive tests. You just have to tell Product.Support@garmin.com that the Tread app changes existing and imported routes because the Tread / Explore sync ignores shaping points.

@Regain

I thought using the MRA 'expand' option to add more shaping points would work but Tread doesn't like that

I did send some MRA gpx1.2 routes via cable for a weekend motorcycle event and Tread didn’t seem to mess with those but that may be because I had to use several Via points

Thoughts on this?

The Tread / Explore sync seems to honor Via Points but ignore Shaping Points. I believe MRA exports via and shaping points if gpx 1.1 is used but does not include shaping points if gpx 1.2 is used.

One thing I have yet to do is build a complex route on Tread. It seems far too much like hard work getting your points exactly where you want them and putting them in the correct order.

That is a major concern for me. Planning long complex routes on a small screen just doesn't work for me.

The primary thing I want my navigation device to do is to navigate the route I had planned on my computer. The XT2 generally does that well for routes in imported gpx files as long as the Tread / Explore sync is avoided. Tread has some nice features, but it breaks the primary thing I want my device to do. For me, the simplest solution is to remove Tread from my phone entirely until Garmin fixes it.

@smfollen , @Oop North John , @SEllis , @lkraus , @proofresistant , @Regain

And anyone else looking in that has personal experience of this behaviour...

I've just about got through the initial Triage section of product support where a number of different people have been looking at my initial contact and have been making sure that they have all of the correct information. I must say that response has been pretty fast and helpful after the initial slow response.

The first congratulated me on the quality and clarity of the evidence that I sent to describe the problem. Follow ups wanted more information and asked various questions and comments.

Like - cannot comment on use of third party software to create GPX files.

• To which I was able to respond that I appreciated that, but the issue also exists with gpx files exported from the Tread App itself - which is why I included it in my first email.

Had I tried it with any different phone ?

• I got the same results on my Samsung Galaxy / Android as I obtained on my Apple Ipad.

Is there any reason I was using GPX files, rather than synching from the tread app ?

• Yes - because I ride with other Zumo owners who don't have the Tread app.
• I have helped motorcycle tour operators who send their files to customers as GPX files.
• The Tread app is so difficult to use on the XT2 itself and on the small screen of the phone.
• I like to have a track of the route to display as well as the route itself, so that if/when the Zumo does something odd, I still have a line on the map that I can trust.

And they wanted a video and a log file created by the Tread app to send them.

A follow up email from them asked for the details - the phone models and iOS versions of all of the phones that I have tested.
So eg Samsung Galaxy A41 / Android 12 . Ipad Air v 3 / iOS 18.0.1

So If you have observed this issue for yourself, I wonder if you would mind sharing the phone make/model and software version please. I'll forward it on to the product support - with no name attached. PM me if you prefer. If not, its OK. Just trying to add a bit of - It's not just me - to the evidence.

--------------------------------------------------

So far I have discovered that as long as the Tread app is swiped off the screen, it does not seem to be able to synch with the XT2. Tread can still be installed. In the case of the Android, it will continue to pass on data info regarding weather, traffic, road closures, messages and alerts from your phone. It doesn't seem to be able to synch. The XT2 says that it is synching, and it will say that it last synched at (2 minutes ago) - but it fails to do so - the route doesn't change.

In other words your routes from Basecamp, MRA etc are safe from modification until you load the Tread App onto the active Window on your phone.

The same is True of the iPad - but if I swipe that off the screen, Tread is not connected at all - so Traffic, weather, phone alerts do not come through. But the ipad is not an iPhone. The iphone may work more like the Android - I don't know. But either way - making sure that Tread is swiped up off the screen seems to prevent the Tread App from changing the route.

----------------------------------------------

In writing back to Tech Support - I made a final comment of a behaviour which is possibly related:

You can see similar behaviour just using the Tread App itself. Eg It is easier to make a route consisting of only Stops/Vias. and then change most of them to Shaping Points. When you change the Vias to Shaping, the route will often jump onto the nearest fast road and take the location of the Shaping Point with it.

Oddly, when you do this, you get a different result if you make the changes :
a) working against the direction of travel of the route
b) working in the direction of travel.

It seems as though when the Tread App receives a new or changed route it is at liberty to ignore the shaping points and plot its own route between the stops or vias. Then create new shaping points to suit.

Almost as if the algorithm is treating shaping points with no more importance than the <gpxx:rpt > route point extensions when a route has to be recalculated.

I've considered that last thought before on a number of occasions. And as I wrote it another thought struck me...

In the early days of Zumo route planning, we had only Via Points. The term shaping point seemed (to me) to be used to refer to the points that the Zumo used to plot the route. What I now think of as ghost points. Its hard to go back and remember how it was with (say) the Zumo 550 and Mapsource. Mapsource never mentions shaping points - yet I had heard the term. Maybe I applied it to the wrong thing.

What if all of those <gpxx:rpt > and the Shaping Points are being treated all the same. Eg if the algorithm is designed to spot the Via Points and plot a route between those, and then replace the shaping point in the same position in the gpx file as the original ? So if there was a shaping point on the 100th line of the original segment in the gpx file, the 100th line of the new route is then made into a shaping point ?

I could imaging one of my student programmers doing something like that in order to make the coding easier. Especially if the name didn't matter and all that had to happen was that the name Shaping Point was used. Focusing on a solution to the task set rather than on whether it solves the original problem. As I understand it, programmers are given specific tasks to complete writing procedures, objects or whatever terms they use these days. They rarely get the whole picture.

I feel a test coming on. I do love a puzzle !!

No - that last check of the relative positions of shaping points in the original and the changed route did not bear any fruit.

@smfollen @jfheath

MRA gpx1.1 sends a route, track, POIs which include Shaping and Via points. MRA gpx1.2 sends the same but strips the Shaping points which are replaced with lots of invisible route points that effectively nails the route to your track. What I should have said is that my imported gpx1.2 routes (which has to be via cable to the XT2 as Tread does not like them) were not messed with despite multiple syncs. I always have Tread running on my iPhone otherwise, as mentioned, you lose everything it provides to the XT2.

So far after more experimenting, if I modify my MRA gpx1.1 routes to something that Tread does not modify on my phone, they seem to stay that way and honour the shaping points I use. Once saved, it's effectively a Tread-built route I think. Before I tried this, Tread would indeed alter my route and sometimes ignore some shaping points that it didn't think made sense and invent some new ones (or move them). I prefer gpx1.1 as you can leave auto-recalculate switched on and it will bring you back to the route without RUT (if I've understood that correctly). Anyway, is this something you have tried? I didn't find it to be that much extra work as I can compare routes on my phone and laptop at home quite easily.

I gave up using Basecamp quite some time ago as I'm just not keen. Yes, I know there are many that will insist I just get to know it (I did) but I like MRA, its mapping & planning options, the way you can share routes and build rider groups. Apart from route planning which I do on my laptop when at home, all the sharing between MRA and Tread can be done on the phone. So I'm not up to date on issues between Basecamp and Zumos and more recently Tread. I think Garmin is encouraging a move away from Basecamp, especially for the XT2 and ending support.

I don't understand why Garmin asked why you are using gpx files when Tread gives you the option. Surely they know these can be obtained from all over the place.

I have the Samsung A54 5G, Android version 14. Tread app too small to be used for my old eyes on the phone and XT2, plus need a track to cross check the routing.

With the Tread app not in the active apps ie weather and traffic ready to be sent, unless I specifically open it up on the phone.

I'm having differing affects on routes generated in BaseCamp and sent to the XT2 via a cable. When I have imported the route I see the Tread app showing red at the end of the bar with the routes name in it, and then sometime later the icon disappears. I will then see that it has sync'd at xx xxx.

The route, which has a start (which is a way / via point), a way / via point and two shaping points and then a finish way /via point. While the XT2 is syncing, then the route seems to be the same as the BaseCamp one. After I open the Tread app on the phone and review the route, it shows it has recalculated it. Re-opening up the route on the XT2 shows the corrupted routing showing on the phone.

I'm sure that there's inconsistencies in what happens with routes with shaping points imported into the XT2 from BaseCamp, but every time the route is opened up on the phone's app then it gets messed up.

I'm going to go bold here and suggest Basecamp is potentially not the best route planner to use any more for the XT2. It has lots of things going for it but making a route that is compatible with Tread doesn't seem to be one of them. I'm prepared for the incoming flak for dissing so many people's old friend.

I don't usually use my phone for planning routes with either MRA or Tread (though I have done and my old eyes need glasses a lot of the time). But it is handy to be able to look at your route on the phone with both MRA and Tread open to compare the two. Whatever you have planned in MRA is also your track and when imported into Tread, your track and 'Tread-built' route are shown so you can see any differences. Then it's easy to modify and add shaping points to your MRA route on your phone or laptop, then save it so that Tread owns it. You could use a tablet for Tread if a phone screen is too small - it will sync with your phone if on the same Wi-Fi or Bluetooth but you only get the planner on whichever is connected to your XT2.

It has taken me some more checking to finally get here after my first post. All done after reading some of the excellent posts from you others. The full proof of the pudding will be my next tour away from home. Next year now.

Some egg-sucking lessons for anyone that needs it. I've found that Tread is very susceptible to route failure with even slightly misplaced waypoints, as is MRA and Zumo. They must be on the road rather than searched for POI/hotels etc. and that includes your start and end point. Do not just accept what your routeplanner gives you which could be in the middle of a building or field. Make the start point somewhere up the road along your route in case you never actually ride through it which will probably force a recalculation when you're forced to 'skip' the Via point. Via points are a real nuisance unless you visit them. Do not start a route or even let it calculate until you have decent satellite coverage. If testing a route indoors, put the XT2 into simulator mode. All the old Zumo tricks, maybe worth mentioning again.

This seems to be very similar to the MRA/Zumo problem with re-routing of old that us users suffered. gpx1.2 solved that but it does have its limitations, especially now that Tread won't utilise it. Essentially, it seems we have to make our imports work in Tread at the moment. I agree that a larger PC/Mac sized version of Tread might solve things for those that don't wish to use any non-Garmin software. And the facility to stop syncing of routes unless required would be very welcome.

Regain wrote:
I'm going to go bold here and suggest Basecamp is potentially not the best route planner to use any more for the XT2. It has lots of things going for it but making a route that is compatible with Tread doesn't seem to be one of them.

That may well be true but I think it is important to separate the Tread app with its Explore database sync from the zumo XT2 device.

In my experience, the zumo XT2 generally works well with routes imported from Basecamp, MRA or whatever route planning tool one might chose. I have had minimal issues when importing routes to the XT2 via gpx file. This includes routes with shaping points.

It is the Tread app, when syncing with the Explore database, which seems to have problems with routes containing shaping points. If the routes are pre-existing on the XT2, or are imported to the XT2 via gpx file, the routes, and the shaping points they include, can be changed dramatically by the sync process. This appears to be the case regardless of what tool is used to generate the route. I found this to be true even for routes generated with Tread, exported to a gpx file, and imported to the XT2.

Regardless of the tool or device one chooses, both Via Points and Shaping Points are specified by the user when defining a route. They are user inputs, not software outputs. The route calculated between user specified points is a software output. It, and the route point extensions generated during route calculation that help define the route, can change on recalculation for a variety of reasons. That is to be expected, but no software should ever change user input on its own.

If you agree, PLEASE tell Product.Support@garmin.com.

@smfollen I totally agree that when Tread syncs gpx routes, it can change planned routes made up of shaping points. It’s not ideal and very frustrating. If Garmin can find a way round that problem, it would be good for all of us.

In the meantime, what I’m suggesting is to make your routes compatible with Tread/Explore so that they do not change. You’ll still get exactly the route you want. This may not be so quick to do in Basecamp but can be with other programmes eg. MRA or dare I say it, Tread itself (not great I know).

smfollen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 10:27 pm It is the Tread app, when syncing with the Explore database, which seems to have problems with routes containing shaping points. If the routes are pre-existing on the XT2, or are imported to the XT2 via gpx file, the routes, and the shaping points they include, can be changed dramatically by the sync process. This appears to be the case regardless of what tool is used to generate the route. I found this to be true even for routes generated with Tread, exported to a gpx file, and imported to the XT2.

If you agree, PLEASE tell Product.Support@garmin.com.

Fully agree - we seem to have arrived at identical conclusions completely independently. There are a couple of other variables involved.
So far - and this has not been rigourous testing - my observations are that Routes created on the XT2 using the Route Planner have behaved themselves on the road. But I have to discount that observation because I did not then know the circumstances under which the Trip Planner App modifies the route - and I might have prevented modification un-intentionally by not having the app running on my phone. Since I was getting road, traffic and weather data - I assumed that it was able to synch. Apparently not. Not for the Android or iPad. Still don't know about the Apple phones.

But the modification is a two stage process. The route seems to synchronise whenever a change is made - either on the XT2 (It checks every minute or so). On the phone app, simply selecting the Explore Library option seems to trigger a synch - after which the XT2's route will have changed - if it is going to.


If you have experienced this issue, PLEASE tell Product.Support@garmin.com.