Tread Changes Exisiting Routes - Shaping Point Issues

[Mzokk]

I think this is the reason that Garmin doesn't gove two hoots about Motorcycle Sat Nav's any more.

ksnip_20241211-172203.jpg (74.97 KiB) Viewed 1891 times

The automotive mobile element of their business is most likely dominated by OEM equipment for vehicle manufacturers motorcycle navigation units I expect are a very small (if highly profitable) market. The instrument/Android Auto cluster on my 2021 Honda Africa Twin is made by Garmin. The XT and XT2 are great bits of hardware but Garmin's software and firmware now leaves a lot to be desired. I two have used Garmin NAVs on my bikes since 2004 and still have my old Garmin 2610, NAV IV 340,390 and an XT. But I think that the way to go now is a second rugged phone and one of the many routing apps. If Garmin completely loses the motorcycle market it only has its self to blame.

I sometimes wonder if all of the good automotive programmers and product testers retired from Garmin or got reassigned about 2015-6??

At least the old Garmin units go on for ever and work well with Garminised open street maps.

[jfheath]

It doesn't actually reveal much useful info, does it ? The diagram doesn't match the title.

[Mzokk]

No not really. I was just wondering why Garmin don't appear to be doing well in relation to Motorcycle Sat Navs now. Too many difficulties and workarounds these days.

[TheoTiger]

I have an XT2. I create routes for our motorcycle club using MRA. I download these routes as .gpx 1.1 (route, track, POI) to my PC. I transfer these GPX files to the SD card on my XT2. When TREAD is active on my iPhone, the routes are altered compared to the ones I created. However, the tracks remain intact. This issue has been known to dozens of users for over a year. Garmin should be ashamed if they claim this is an unknown problem to them.

My solution is not to install the TREAD app on my phone.
You disable recalculation. However, if a road closure or major traffic jam is detected on your route, it will still recalculate a new route. The result is that your planned route gets ruined.

[jfheath]

Thank you for those observations @TheoTiger - and welcome to the forum.


My solution is to

* Have Tread on the phone
* Prevent it from synching data with the XT2.
* Use only 'Saved' routes.

What follows is an explanation

My solution is not to install the TREAD app on my phone.

That works, but you may have to perform a system reset on the XT2 to prevent it from trying to synchronise. It will fail of course, but it doesn't know that until it has tried. That may cause other issues which affect Bluetooth behaviour. I don't know for certain - but I have suspicions that phone call, recording of track logs, music playback may be suffering.

One thing I have found that works is to delete the Tread App. Reset the XT2. Start again. Install Tread but this time reject the option to store data / enable synchronisation. You only get that option once. If you accept it, then it is set up for ever -or at least until you return your XT2 to factory conditions. If you don't accept, you have to dismiss a couple of attempts to get you to set it up.

That set up gives you access to the traffic, weather, roadwork, fuel prices from the Tread App on your phone but the route stays intact. You can turn off Traffic on the screen system options.

You disable recalculation. However, if a road closure or major traffic jam is detected on your route, it will still recalculate a new route. The result is that your planned route gets ruined.

That is correct. If you allow Traffic, the XT2 will plot a new route without giving you the option. If you don't allow Traffic data, then it doesn't. The data is pretty good sometimes, but other times - eg night only closures - can be annoying when you have detoured unnecessarily.

Tracks never get altered ( unless you turn them into a route to navigate). I find that the best combination is to show the track on the map as well as the route. I show the track in black and I have modified my theme file to show it slightly wider than the route - so the route has a black outline to it when it is following my plotted roads, and I can see instantly when it deviates.

When you say that your planned route gets ruined --- Do you mean that it no longer passes through your original route points ? That behaviour is largely eliminated by disabling the synch / storage on the Tread database. However, a separate issue can also cause this:

In some circumstances - if an imported route - ie one loaded from a gpx file - is recalculated, then it subsequently behaves differently if you deviate from the route. It no longer takes much notice of your route points and instead it tries to get you back to the original magenta line by navigating you to the closest point. Often if you deviate, the closest point is where you left the route. Behind you. Thereafter, the closest point is always behind you. It's a loop that it cannot escape from. It's something that I called RUT behaviour - because it seems to be stuck in a rut. That is what 'appears' to be happening from numerous tests I have carried out.

But it never does this with routes that are not imported. Routes that have been created and saved on the XT2 itself. So there is a cunning fix to this. Make the XT2 think that your gpx route is a saved one.

The XT2 has a 'Copy' facility. Load the route, make a copy of it (spanner menu, top left) and save it with a name to distinguish it from the imported one. I out an @ symbol in front of the original name (I was looking for a (C) copyright symbol, but the XT doesn't have one.)
Load the copy and that will visit your route points in strict order, but it will allow you to forget about shaping points if you rejoin the route after the missed shaping point.

Note that if the XT2 has to recalculate a route, eg if you press 'Skip' then it may well alter the entire route - but it still has to visit all of your shaping points and via points. It is up to you to plot shaping points to keep it in your preferred roads. That doesn't mean plotting many more. It means plotting them more sensibly. With Tread active - Tread will move your shaping points onto its preferred route. With Tread synch disabled, this doesn't happen.

[Oop North John]

On my XT2 with Tread sync active and Traffic enabled, if there's a better route, then the XT2 asks if I want to use it.

With the above synchronisation on, I see sometimes where the XT2 doesn't let go of routes that were deleted on the phone, and, those routes don't go back to the Tread app. Which can cause confusion for me. So, I always email the Basecamp gpx file to myself so that I can use a known starting point.

[jfheath]

On my XT2 with Tread sync active and Traffic enabled, if there's a better route, then the XT2 asks if I want to use it.

Thank you - I have seen that behaviour, but I have been unable to reproduce it. That will be why - I went past the point of ever wanting it to synch with Tread. I will revisit that. I've certainly seen it spot a queue ahead show an indication on a display on the right hand side suggesting that if I turn off, it will avoid the queue. With road closures, I never got the chance - it just recalculated.

Maybe I need to go back and make sure that these behaviour were observed with the XT in the same configuration - possibly not. I certainly wasn't testing that behaviour at the time - just observed it on rides.

[TheoTiger]

THX all for the help.
Ik send the following message to GARMIN (in Dutch):
The Thread App modifies imported routes. New shaping points are created, resulting in altered routes and much discussion during group rides. Even routes created on another XT2 by a riding buddy are considered imported routes. Tracks, however, remain intact. This prevents routes with planned coffee and fuel stops from being used. I advise my club members with an XT(2) to exclusively ride tracks or remove the Tread App from their phones. With the latter advice, many of the XT(2)'s benefits are lost. This software issue has persisted since the XT's production began. I, along with many users, am deeply disappointed with the XT2. This is my fifth ZUMO (starting with the 500), and I have never encountered such problems before. Please resolve this issue.

[jfheath]

I got a reply just before Christmas - after I had chased up what was happening with this fault that I had reported. Everything had gone quiet - which is what usually happens with reported faults.

They must have special letter when someone contacts to suggest that nothing is happening. This is what I received. There was no specific information in the letter that indicated that they knew anything about the case in question - but they did say that they had not been able to replicate the issue internally.

Anyway - two repeat tests were required. One using the XT2 Developer options to record a log file. One using the Android phone to record a BT log of what was going on at the Android end.

Briefly - the issue is this.

Put a GPX file on the SD card. Import it into the XT2. All is fine. Let it synch. The route is moved onto faster roads and the shaping points are moved with them.

Before Synch and After Synch screen shots - actually taken from the video I recorded of what I did while producing the logs.

Moving Shaping Point Test.png (262.62 KiB) Viewed 586 times

So tests done and logs sent back to them. I pointed out that:

• I was surprised that they said that they are unable to replicate the behaviour. It does it every time for me.
• I normally use Basceamp which I know does not officially support the XT2. But the gpx file that I used for these tests was of a short route that I created on the Tread App and exported as a GPX - to avoid any suspicion that external software such as Basecamp was to blame for the behavour.
• That the same behaviour also happens when the IPad is paired with the XT2 - so it is unlikely to be an issue with the phone
• I was surprised that they are looking at BT issues. It seems to be the behaviour in the Tread App that is causing the problem.

Interesting observation.

When using the Android phone - there is a often very long wait before the route changes - and sometimes it doesn't do it immediately without me pressing the synch button on the phone. But if I wait long enough, eg on a ride, the route will change at some point.
When using the ipad - the route changes immediately that the first synchronisation is made - without having to press the synch button. The route is perfect on the XT2 screen before it synchs - although I had to be quick to see it. The ipad displays the changed route as soon as synch is complete - (curiously without shaping points displayed) . The next synch sends the changed route with moved shaping points back to the XT2. If you tap the edit button on the Tread App on the iPad, then the shaping points are shown - already in their wrong positions.

I'm well aware that this email may well be a tactic to make it look as though they are doing something. Simple. Bog standard letter - rattle it off to anyone who keeps perstering about something. It keeps them busy and off our backs for a while. Oh yes - and send it out just before Christmas. Am I being synical ?

I am contacting you with regards to the case that we have open for you.
We've not been able to replicate any issues internally, to be able to look into this further for you, we would like to collect some logs from both the Zumo and your phone.

Firstly we will need to gather Bluetooth logs for your device:
Please use the following directions to record your Bluetooth logs. This will allow us to determine the cause of the problem. Before following through the steps below, please ensure that the affected devices are not currently paired.

To record Bluetooth logs:
1. Touch the Volume button on the main menu
2. Touch and hold the upper-right corner of the volume screen
3. When the screen changes (between 5-10 seconds), touch Diagnostic Logging
4. Touch Start Recording
o Touch General on some devices before this step
5. Place a check mark next to BIN or binary by touching the box
6. Place a check mark next to Bluetooth by touching the box
7. Touch the menu button (three horizontal lines) in the top-left corner
8. Touch Start
9. You should be taken to the map screen

Only after starting the log recording as instructed above, please pair the device to your cell phone and/or headset (pairing with a headset is only available on certain devices). Please use the device as you have been for media, testing the various Bluetooth functions you are experiencing trouble with.
Once you’ve recorded the logs, please touch the Stop button on the left-hand side of the map screen and press the back arrow until the Where To? View Map screen displays.

Next, please reply to this email and attach the log files. You can find the log files by following these steps:

1. Connect the device to your computer
2. Open the Garmin drive once the device is recognized
o This drive will appear either in Computer or My Computer (Windows) or on the Desktop (Mac)
3. Open the Logs folder
o If you’re using a Windows computer, you may have to open the Internal Storage item before this step
4. Open the bin folder
5. Please attach all files within this folder to your email reply

Once we have the Bluetooth logs we’ll research the issue further. Thank you in advance for your patience and cooperation.

Secondly, we would like you to go through the steps in this article; Creating an Android Bug Report to send us some logs from your phone as well.

Between both we can look into the issue you reported further.
Please do let me know if you have any questions about these steps.

Kind regards,

This message was odd - I have two issues lodged with Garmin Product Support - both have different references numbers. One is for the moving shaping points. One is for the inability to end an incoming call. The message sounds as though it is more relevant to the phone call issue. The reference number refers to the moving route and shaping point issue.

I suspect that it doesn't really matter. I doubt that anything will come from this.

[Oop North John]

So after almost one month after my "we're going to do nothing about it" letter, you get one asking you to reproduce it?

The delay in things changing certainly made me question on whether it was me or the XT2 / Tread that was giving inconsistent results! And, I'm certain that after a change, then subsequent changes are different as well.

I suspect that they're not going to change this, or the faster roads algorithm which means we have to use the shaping points so it plans to go along the roads we want to anytime soon.