Zumo User Forums

Hello,
Just to be sure about my understanding...on the way XT is working. (I tried to use the right words)

For my route I don't start from scratch... I often work on GPX found on the Net containing a track (see enclosed examples) that I modifie following my needs (Basecamp). Once the track is done, I convert it to route in Basecamp. If I see that everything is ok (route following the track, timing distance, etc. I convert the route back to track... In this case, my finished work is a clean track. I import the track in my Zumo (previously the 590).
1st question: On the track, there is a numerous points. When I recall the track in the Zumo to convert the track in route, What becomes these points? The route I get respects perfectly the track but I just find 2 points... Start and End.
2nd
When I just follow indications of the GPS, everything is perfect. Absolutely no difference between route and previous track.
if you need to leave your route (fuel, mechanical problem, etc.), you are dead. When you recall the track in the 590 to reach back your route, it asks you if you want to go to the start or to the End and calculates a new route completely different than your previous track... to go straight to the End (quickest or shortest route depending your setting).
To recover the right way, I was using OsmAnd (android app.) which was asking if I wanted to reach my route at the nearest point...
If I understand right, you explained that the zumo XT is making the same job (even if the road doesn't contain any via points). Did I understood right. If yes it's really the best improvement for me . (I hope that my English is understandable...).
Thanks for your help.
Example of GPX file I use yo start

https://www.motofree.com/route-des-gran ... -jour.html

I've got this one folks.

I picked up on Ivan on the facebook pages where he was getting a load of duff information ! I'm part way through a conversation - so I have locked it until I can get the answer to follow on from what we have prviously talked about. Let me complete my answer and I'll unlock the topic again.

Navi911 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:02 am For my route I don't start from scratch... I often work on GPX found on the Net containing a track (see enclosed examples) that I modifie following my needs (Basecamp). Once the track is done, I convert it to route in Basecamp. If I see that everything is ok (route following the track, timing distance, etc. I convert the route back to track... In this case, my finished work is a clean track. I import the track in my Zumo (previously the 590).

I'll come back to this - I'm not entirely clear that we are talking about the same things - track / routes / trips. So what follows is a an attempt to clarify.

First of all - a Track.

There are two types of track:

1) The kind of track that is a record of where you have been.

This is called an Active Log in the files that keep this information. They can be accessed from Basecamp or from the XT screen. Here are some images taken from Basecamp of my Active log from 1st September 2014 - on more or less the same route that you show. Click the image for a more detailed view.

I don't believe that you will have used tracks like these - but I am adding them to show you the information that a track may contain.

Pic 1. The Active Log track shown on the Basecamp map.

Note the little blue running figure - which is me moving my mouse around the track.


Pic 2. A graph drawn by Basecamp of my ride over this part of the Route Napolean.

In this type of track, the gpx file contains the date, time, speed and elevation. I am looking have my mouse over the first peak - which is where the little blue running figure is shown ont he map.


Pic 3. A close up of a small section of the track.

Note the small dots - these are the individual points where the Zumo has recorded my latitude and longitude position, my speed, my elevation, the date and the time. There are a lot of these points and the mapping program simply draws a straight line between each pair of points. Note that to make it look real, the XT has recorded more points on the bends than it has on the straights. For this particular section of my ride, it recorded 3,279 points in 2 hours moving time.

Pic 4. The detailed view of a few of the 3,279 records in the Active Log.

Both types of tracks have records like this, but only active logs show the date, time and speed.





2nd Type of Track - The kind that you draw for yourself.


Pic 05 - Using Basecamp to draw a track freehand.


Many mapping programs will allow you to create a track simply by drawing it on the map. It can be drawn anywhere - as you can see in the image below. A track like this is useless for navigation, unless it is drawn carefully using satellite images to place the track precisely on the position of footpaths, trails, roads etc.

In Basecamp the tool to draw a track freehand is shown in the screen shot below, outlined in red. The green line was just drawn as a piece of scribble. Note that the software has plotted a number of points, and points are connected together with a straight line.

Note that these points are not Shaping Points. Nor are they Via Points or Waypoints. Tracks do not have any of these 3 types of points in them. They don't have a fancy name - they are just called track points, and appear in the gpx file as <trkpt .... >

The table alongside is the same sort of table as I showed for the Route Napolean active log. But shows only the latitude/longitude, the distance and direction of each short section. That is all that it needs. It is the same type of line as the active log, but without the additional information.


Normally, you wouldn't draw a track like this. If you want it to appear on a map following roads, it is easier to create a route and get the mapping program to create a line that follows the roads precisely and then convert that to a track.

That is what I am going to do next, but I'll put that in the following post. This one is big enough.

Creating a Route from a Track in Basecamp.

In case you missed it my previous post, tracks do not have shaping points, via points or waypoints. They just have those many small dots which the computer or the stanav joins together with a sequence of short straight lines. It make the track look like curves, but they are not - The satnav gets out its ruler and joins adjacent dots with a short straight line.

Do they have a name. Yes they do. They are called Track Points. But you never get to see them on the satnav. Basecamp will show them though, as we have seen.

Are these the same as Ghost Points in routes ? You may be wondering this if you have been looking at other sources of information. If you haven't then don't worry about it for now.
No they are not the same as 'ghost points'. But the programs that convert tracks to routes will use the position of track points to create the route points. Programs that convert routes to tracks will simply take each invisible (ghost) point and change it to a track point.

Basecamp will convert a track into a route - but you have to specify how many points you want it to create, and it is the luck of the draw whether or not it will follow the track exactly. A better technique is to create the route using route points.

To do this, you start by displaying the track that you have on the Basecamp map and use it as a guide. In my example below, I have a track log of the same section of the Route Napolean from Briancon heading south to Barcelonnette.
I will use the Basecamp route creation tool to put a route point at Briancon and another at Barcelonnette. The three maps in the picture below represent the three stages. The magenta line is the route that I am creating. The faded blue line is the track.
Click the image to see a full size version.



Left Picture. I have created a route with two route points, circled in red. Briancon at the top, Barceloonnette at the bottom. In this example I have opted to draw a straight line between them.

So I have created a Trip which consists of three pieces of information. 2 route points (Briancon, Barcelonnette) and a routing preferences (Direct / Straight line). The trip describes how the route is to be drawn. The Route is the magenta line that joins together the two route points in the way that I have requested - a straight line joining the two points.

Middle Picture. The same route points, but this time I have changed the Trip's routing preferences to select the faster roads. So the Trip now consists of three pieces of information - the same two route points plus the new routing preference of Faster Time. The trip still describes how the route is to be drawn - the faster route between the two route points.
The Route is recalculated to apply the new information and is very different from the route above - the magenta line follows the original track for much of its length

Right Picture. In order to make the route follow the roads taken in the tracklog, I need to add another route point to the trip. I have created a route point at Arvieux, simply by using Basecamp's 'Insert Tool'.
The Trip now has 3 route points (Briancon, Arvieux and Barcelonnette) in the correct order. The routing preference is still faster time, and Basecamp and the XT will use those 4 pieces of information to plot a Route.
These 3 route points and the preference of faster time allow the route to be calculated in such a way that it is now very close to the original track.

None of the 3 route points are Waypoints. I didn't create them and save them before adding them to the trip - which is basically how Garmin defines the term Waypoint. Other mapping software often use the term Waypoint to mean any point in a trip, but Garmin doesn't. This is a forum for Zumo users, so I always use the Garmin definitions.

The three route points are part of the trip, and will become part of the route once it has been calculated. They must be set as either shaping points or via points - there are no other options. (Even if I had created them first as saved Waypoints, they would still have to be set as either shaping points or via points.

There is no choice about the first and last point - they are always set as Via Points. The middle point could be either a shaping point or a via point and for once I don't care what it is. When Zumo or Basecamp calculates a route it will always create one which passes through all of the route points, no matter whether it is Via or Shaping. All I am interested in at the moment is having a route from which I can create a track that has exactly the same shape and follows exactly the same roads.


There are a few glitches. In a few places, my original track log seems to wander away from the road. On such example is shown on this 1:100,000 scale map (1cm - 1Km) of France. The track log shows the route that I took on 1st Sept 2014, yet there is no road there. So thi is an error in my recorded track log. At the time I was in a very steep sided valley - indicated by how close together the contour lines are packed. At these particular spots, the view of the satellites must have been compromised, so the accuracy of my position will have been pretty poor. It has recorded 7 points which are obviously inaccurate, and joined them together with straight lines. This is what it normally does, but now they are not plotted on the road, it is very obvious.

The new route is does not follow the original track with its little errors - because I was just using the track as a guide. The data in the Trip - 3 points and 'Faster' preference - seem to be enough to create a route that follows my original track quite closely - and doesn't follow the errors. Providing my 3 points are accurately placed !

So this is a warning about using tracks from unknown sources - if they have been created from someone's track log; if they have been drawn freehand; if they have been created using different maps. In any of these situations there could be places where the track isn't placed exactly on the road, and this may cause problems for the Zumo when it comes to calculating a route.

Once you have your new route has been drawn, it is a simple matter of using that to create a track in Basecamp: On a PC, Right click the route, and select 'Create Track from selected Route'.

So now you have three things:

A Trip - which describes how the route should be calculated by the software (Basecamp or Zumo).
A Route, which is the one that Basecamp created.
A Track, which follows exactly the same line as the new Route that Basecamp has just created.

Trip / Route footnote

Most people - including me on occasions - when using the Zumo screen think of using the Trip Planner App as 'Creating a Route', rather than 'Creating a Trip'. This is easy to understand why - but Garmin themselves have named the "Trip Planner App" which is what you use before any magenta line is drawn on the map. The Trip defines the rules to be followed when the route is calculated and drawn.

Navi911 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:02 am 1st question: On the track, there are a numerous points. When I recall the track in the Zumo to convert the track to a route, What becomes these points? The route I get respects perfectly the track but I just find 2 points... Start and End.

All of those track points are still there. The XT loads these in as part of the GPX file, and it uses them to draw the track exactly as Basecamp created it.

You cannot use the XT to convert a track into route. The option does not exist.
You can use the XT to select a track and then select 'Convert to Trip'. And that is misleading because this type of trip is not the same as the Trip that I was talking about earlier. It doesn't have any route points or routing preference or vehicle type.

I don't know what Garmin were thinking when they chose the word 'Trip' - it is confusing. So I introduced the term 'Track-Trip' to make the distinction between this and the original use of the word 'Trip' as in 'Trip Planner'.

What you get is something that looks like a route and it gives spoken navigations like a route. It has a start and an end, but those points are not Via or Shaping Points. The Track-Trip itself will never recalculate unless you force it - it stays put exactly as it was created using all of the invisible track points that I talked about earlier. (Not 'ghost points'). Those points are still there forming the magenta line, but just like a track, you never see them on the screen.

What happens if you deviate from a Track-Trip is really quite clever. There are no route points to aim for, so what the XT does instead is to find the closest point on the remainder of the magenta line from your current position, and it heads for that. A new magenta line is then created from a new section of line taking you to the closest point, and from the closest point to what remains of the original magenta line to the end. This makes it very easy to deal with blocked roads - take a detour using a roughly parallel road and the XT will quickly navigate you ahead to rejoin the original route further on.

If you want to get an ide of how this works, load in the original track and say 'Go !'. The track will be plotted as a mgenta line, which you can follow. No nabviagation instrauctions are given in this case, but if you wander away from the magenta line, the XT will show you the directio of the closest point of the magenta route - as a straight dashed line - and it will also tell you how far off course you are. Basically, it is saying 'Your closest point is 5 miles in this direction as the crow flies'. (Sorry - English term meaning 'in a straight line')

It can be annoying because if your detour has to take you in completely the wrong direction, the closest point will always be behind you, and you will have to be almost on top of the original magenta line before it finds it. And that scenario will be very familiar to those of us that have experienced the RUT (repeated U turn) behaviour of normal routes.

Track-Trips are not something that you want to create if the route is an out-and-back trip where the return leg is close to or crosses over the outward leg or where the end is close to the start.

Navi911 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:02 am 2nd Question:

When I just follow indications of the GPS, everything is perfect. Absolutely no difference between route and previous track.
if you need to leave your route (fuel, mechanical problem, etc.), you are dead. When you recall the track in the 590 to reach back your route, it asks you if you want to go to the start or to the End and calculates a new route completely different than your previous track... to go straight to the End (quickest or shortest route depending your setting).

Are we still taking about a track that has been converted to a trip here ? And when you say 'reach back your route' do you mean that you 'reload the trip' - recharger ?

Just had a thought - so I checked the French display and compared with the English. I wondered if the translation of Trip was inconsistent between menus - but no - its all OK.

Trajet = Trip
Itineraire = route
Traces = Track
Excuse the lack of accents.

My French is non existent. Your english on the other hand is excellent.

So if we are still talking about a track that has been converted to a trip, and it only has a start and an end and those are the only options.

Yes if you reload it, you are starting a new Track-Trip. The old one will be lost. But as far as I am aware, the Zumo will continue with the currently loaded track trip when you get on the bike again.

I haven't treid this, but when you load a track trip it is asking which way you wish to naviagat. Front the start heading towards the end, or from the end heading towards the start. In the case of Route Napolean - North to South, or South to North.
Choose the one that gives you the direction you wish to ride, and then find your way to the magenta line and it should pick up navigation from there. I would be very surprised if that did not happen - but I have been surprised before, and I haven't tried it so I don't know.

But you need to be aware that there are now two kinds of trip in the trip planner app - because when you convert a track to a trip, is puts the result in the trip planner app, along with the 'normal' trips.

If you are expecting it to behave like the 590, then you need to create a trip as I defined in my first reply above. That is - a number of route points that define which locations you wish to pass through, and define the vehicle (motorcycle) and the route preferences (eg Faster Time). The trip planner then calculates the routes.

When you select start, the XT (like the 590) will ask which place you want to navigate to first. It lists the start and the end and any route points that you have set as Via Points. Normally you would choose the start point, and if you have been reading those links, you will know not to put the start point at the start. Put the start point a mile or so up the road - so that you pass through it. It gives the satnav time to get a signal so that it knows that you have started the route.

Navi911 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:02 am To recover the right way, I was using OsmAnd (android app.) which was asking if I wanted to reach my route at the nearest point...
If I understand right, you explained that the zumo XT is making the same job (even if the road doesn't contain any via points). Did I understood right. If yes it's really the best improvement for me . (I hope that my English is understandable...).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here - but I think I have just answered it !

Please let me know if I haven't !

Hi John,
Fisrt of all, thank you very much for you detailed answers (and your comments on my English ).
Now it's clear in my head on the different ways to build a road (or trip for the track trip way). In fact, I discovered that I never used Zumo in the normal way...
Since my first Zumo 500 (followed by 550, 590 and now XT), I always used what you call "track - trip"
As I always start from tracks I got on the Net, I built my trip on several days, building 1 road (trip in the word of Garmin when you convert from track) per days (from hotel to hotel) based previously on tracks optimized in Basecamp.
With your explanations, I discovered that the points of the track are not used clearly by Garmin during the conversion from the track but, the most important "are used"
After the conversion made by the XT, the road (trip) is absolutely following the previous track but no via or shaping point appears, just "start" and "end"
Remember that my initial problem was that it was complicate to recover the road (trip) if you leaved it.
This is true on the 590 but, I just carried out 1 test (static but significant...) on the XT and, the XT does perfectly the Job .
Following the track-trip way, I built a track from south of my home to North (less than 30 km but enough for the test). My home (Viarmes) is located at couple of km on the west of the track.
I loaded the track to the XT using Garmin Drive.
I import the track in the track folder of the XT (it asked me if I wanted).
I convert to trip (XT) and chosing the direction (to the end if the track)
I select the trip from the trip planner.
When I selected "Go", XT asked me Begin, End or... "Closest Entry point" Yeeees . (not existing on previous Zumo)
I selected this option, the XT does the calculation and
the road (trip) on the screen shows that the XT creates a road from my home to join the road and, after the point of meeting, the road follows perfectly the previous track (green on pict) . Even if the track was taking a longer way that possible to reach the end. (voluntary done to see if XT respects the track.) (dee pict)
I was waiting for this function for a long time (already existing on the latest TomTom rider and on OsmAnd)
For me it's really a huge improvement...
I'm not sure that my explanations are clear and I try to join pictures...
And once again thank you for your job and your help.

Brilliant. You're working now and we now know how you use the Zumo.

I had a 590 for many years. I don't remember it having the convert to trip feature for tracks. But that isn't a surprise - if I don't use it, I tend to forget....

If you ever want to try selecting start instead of closest entry, and then finding your own way to a point somewhere in between start and finish. I would like to know if it navigates you in the correct direction as soon as you join the magenta line.

(Do you call the colour of the line 'magenta' in French ?? )

jfheath wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:18 pm Brilliant. You're working now and we now know how you use the Zumo.

I had a 590 for many years. I don't remember it having the convert to trip feature for tracks. But that isn't a surprise - if I don't use it, I tend to forget....

If you ever want to try selecting start instead of closest entry, and then finding your own way to a point somewhere in between start and finish. I would like to know if it navigates you in the correct direction as soon as you join the magenta line.

(Do you call the colour of the line 'magenta' in French ?? )

The 590 (and also 500 and 550) works in the same way that XT except the possibility to reach the road (trip) at the closest point. On the 590 if you select the End (on a track-trip) , it'll calculate a road straight to the end without taking care of the track-trip...
the story
In 2022, I organized another trip in Alpes. in the middle of the trip, a friend got a problem with a seal on one side of its front fork (fork oil leaking). We had to leave the track - trip to find a degreasing spray. When I loaded my track - trip, I select "end" and the 590 calculates a road straight to the end of the road through the "Frejus" tunnel (35€/bike X 5 bikes ) to arrive in Italy and, to leave the highway at the next exit (maybe 2 kms after the end of the tunnel) to cross back the border to France to arrive at "Montgenevre " with 4 bikers ready to kill me

For the direction, I 'll test in live as soon as I will have available time but I think that it' ll be ok. when I selected "convert to trip", it asks me to select the trip direction "start to finish" or "finish to start"
As soon I'll carry the test out, I will post a message to inform you.

In French, we use also "magenta" even for the ink for printers .