Is this RUT?

[jfheath]

Ok I managed to get out on Monday. Time, Sunny day, dry roads - so I was able to do the 2nd and 3rd tests of my well tried and tested RUT test route.

Result - the XT2 is well capable of getting stuck in a RUT. But a very easy solution definitely fixes this behaviour.


The image on the left is the planned route as produced in Basecamp and how it appears in the Zumo XT2 after it has been imported. The route starts bottom right, and travels in a counter-clockwise direction passing through saved Waypoints
01 Start (about a mile up the road) from my current location.
02 A65 Skip this.
03 Kettlewell (set as a shaping point)
04 Hawes Exit
05 Cleatop
06 is another shaping point - and I'm not bothered about anything after 05 Cleatop.


The first image shows the original route from Basecamp. The second image shows the recalculated route - the same as that produced after pressing Skip to miss out 02 Skip This Via Point. I intend to take that early trun to the South of my first picture - thus deviating from the XT2s recalculated route.

The third image shows what happened on a previous test on the XT - I was 3 miles from the Via point at Cleatop having put up with 11 miles of U turn request every few hundred metres. It was sill insisting that I go back to the junction. In fact it isn't trying to get me to go to the junction - each U turn request only calculates a new section back to its previous calculated route - a few hundred metres back.

Ribblehead RUT v OK.png (767.73 KiB) Viewed 2082 times

But this final test using the Copied route on the XT2, the route recalculate south - just like image 2 - and it did it the moment that I took the road south instead of continuing along the plotted route.


And Yes, the mImport Byte fix makes it behave properly. But the Copy function on the XT2 is a nice easy option - similar to resaving the active route on the XT - but that methods adds your current location as the new start. The XT2s Cpy function doesn't - and the new route behaves exactly like a route that has been built on the XT2 itself.

I have to say though - in a different test on roads where there were plenty of alternatives, the XT got stuck in a similar RUT to about a mile before reaching the end point. The XT2 showed signes of that, but it managed to escape from it much earlier - about 5 miles after the tipping point and about 10 miles from the final destination. So the XT2 is different in what it does and how it does it. But RUTs are still possible- but so far they have not happened for me on the XT2 or the XT if the imported route has been 'nobbled' to make it look like one that has been built on the XT/ XT2 screen itself.

Footnote. The Tread App - in spite of what you might read to the contrary - I think is a game changer. Routes from the tread app are synchronised with the XT2, and the XT2 treats them as Saved and will behave perfectly from the outset. I'm not a fan - because of the size of the screen - but the features on the Tread App are reproduced on the XT2 screen and you can work on one and then continue on the other. And the XT2 route planner app is much much easier to use then that thing that was put onto the XT.

More on that later.

[Oop North John]

@jfheath

When you imported the routes into the XT2, was it to a SD card, or direct into the XT2?

If it was into the XT2 directly, I was wondering if the importing from the SD card "converts" it into a RUT free route?

[jfheath]

@jfheath

When you imported the routes into the XT2, was it to a SD card, or direct into the XT2?

If it was into the XT2 directly, I was wondering if the importing from the SD card "converts" it into a RUT free route?

It was to the SD card. With the XT I tested to see if there was any difference between routes stored on the SD card and Internal Storage. The the mImported byte remained as 'True'. It seems to me that any route that is obtained from any gpx file is regarded as imported.
Although I have not carried out the same parallel test on the XT2, I have started using the SD card for my gpx files. I noted before these last tests that when imported, the mImport byte was set to 1 (true). So on the XT2 screen I made a copy of the route and double checked the mImported byte - it was set to 0 (false / saved). The mImported byte for the original route from which the copy was made remained set at 1 (true / imported).

The original route developed kept demanding to go back. The Copied route behaved perfectly - immediately calculating the route along the road I was riding.

Once a route has been imported from a gpx file - it is available to select on the Zumo. At this point, the XT2 has a Copy facility :

Main Screen -> Apps -> Routes -> Select Route -> Spanner -> Copy -> Enter new name
This duplicates the original - but the copy has the mImported byte set to 0 False.

The original route showed the RUT behaviour. The identical route (copied) did not show RUT behaviour.

I have just done some testing with the Tread app route planner. Anything created by Tread and synched via BT is automatically regarded as 'Saved' - ie mImported bytes is set to 0 = false.
By inference this does away with the RUT issue completely for the XT2 as far as Garmin's preferred route planning software is concerned.

[smfollen]

I was wondering if the importing from the SD card "converts" it into a RUT free route?

It's actually the other way around.
I have created RUT free routes directly on the XT2, saved them to the sd card and then re-imported from the sd card.
The original route does not display RUT, the exact same route imported from the SD card does.

see viewtopic.php?p=21862#p21862

[jfheath]

I was wondering if the importing from the SD card "converts" it into a RUT free route?

It's actually the other way around.
I have created RUT free routes directly on the XT2, saved them to the sd card and then re-imported from the sd card.
The original route does not display RUT, the exact same route imported from the SD card does.

see viewtopic.php?p=21862#p21862

It's actually any gpx file from anywhere (SD Card, Internal, shared, obtained via Drive etc) that will display RUT behaviour - usually following a deviation some time after the route has been recalculated. They are marked by the system as Imported during the import process.

Any route created on the XT itself is marked as not Imported. On the XT, these show in the Saved list.

But if you can change that flag that tells the system that it has been imported - all seems to be good. The same appears to be true for the XT2.
But we have fixes that prevent this behaviour and 'proved' to work with XT2. (Limitied testing so far, but the signs are .... positive).

[Sean OZ]

Created a route firstly using Google "My Maps". I then download the "native" KMZ file that Google My Maps created.

I then converted the KMZ file to a GPX file using the "My Geodata Convertor" website. Then downloaded the newly converted GPX file to my windows PC and imported the GPX file into base camp.

The GPX file obtained from "My Geodata Convertor" will only show as a Track in BaseCamp when first loaded. Using BaseCamp I then created a route from the newly imported Track. I then sent the track, the route, and the start and stop waypoints from BaseCamp to the Zumo XT2. When firstly creating the route using Google My Maps, I had used about 6 "add new destination" points to the route. I have no idea what the Zumo XT2 eventually sees these Google My Maps destination points as. I think the Zumo XT2 sees them as a Way Point when the Google KZM file is converted into a GPX file.

Was a fairly long ride over about 200Kms about 3 hours long, with 6 added destinations in the original Google KMZ file i mapped out. No extra way points or shaping points where added using BaseCamp. I only used BaseCamp as an intermediatory-interface to send the GPX info to the XT2.



Everything seemed to be working well until about 40 minutes into the ride when I decided to purposefully deviate from the Zumo's on-screen route. Zumo was able to recalculate the route, but from then on it only wanted to send me back to the turn off I had "missed" and not just accept that I was sticking to the Track. Fortunately I had set up the Zumo XT2 to show both the route and the track info at the same time on the same on-screen map. So I just ignored most of the prompts telling me to head back to the turnoff I missed and just followed the Track line instead. This was "workable' to get me to where I wanted to be, but the "Turn by Turn" directions and the mix between the route line and the track line on screen, became very "scrambled" at times.

I've been reading up on how making a copy the original route and track data imported into the XT2 and then using the copied file may be a way to stop the XT2 entering into RUT behavior. I'll next ride up to the same place I encountered the RUT problems today with a "copied" route file and see if that kills the RUT. (Fingers Crossed) I won't get the chance for another 10 days or so, due to upcoming work obligations.

Life would be so much simpler if Garmin would just come up with a desk top equivalent for the new tread app. Then none of us would have to try and create our routes on ridiculously small phone screens or on the Zumo XT itself. I still can't understand why Garmin has dropped the ball so badly by denying us a simple way to create routes etc., on a large screen. BLOODY BONKERS!

[rbentnail]

Created a route firstly using Google "My Maps". I then download the "native" KMZ file that Google My Maps created.

I then converted the KMZ file to a GPX file using the "My Geodata Convertor" website. Then downloaded the newly converted GPX file to my windows PC and imported the GPX file into base camp.

The GPX file obtained from "My Geodata Convertor" will only show as a Track in BaseCamp when first loaded. Using BaseCamp I then created a route from the newly imported Track. I then sent the track, the route, and the start and stop waypoints from BaseCamp to the Zumo XT2. When firstly creating the route using Google My Maps, I had used about 6 "add new destination" points to the route. I have no idea what the Zumo XT2 eventually sees these Google My Maps destination points as. I think the Zumo XT2 sees them as a Way Point when the Google KZM file is converted into a GPX file.

Was a fairly long ride over about 200Kms about 3 hours long, with 6 added destinations in the original Google KMZ file i mapped out. No extra way points or shaping points where added using BaseCamp. I only used BaseCamp as an intermediatory-interface to send the GPX info to the XT2.



Everything seemed to be working well until about 40 minutes into the ride when I decided to purposefully deviate from the Zumo's on-screen route. Zumo was able to recalculate the route, but from then on it only wanted to send me back to the turn off I had "missed" and not just accept that I was sticking to the Track. Fortunately I had set up the Zumo XT2 to show both the route and the track info at the same time on the same on-screen map. So I just ignored most of the prompts telling me to head back to the turnoff I missed and just followed the Track line instead. This was "workable' to get me to where I wanted to be, but the "Turn by Turn" directions and the mix between the route line and the track line on screen, became very "scrambled" at times.

I've been reading up on how making a copy the original route and track data imported into the XT2 and then using the copied file may be a way to stop the XT2 entering into RUT behavior. I'll next ride up to the same place I encountered the RUT problems today with a "copied" route file and see if that kills the RUT. (Fingers Crossed) I won't get the chance for another 10 days or so, due to upcoming work obligations.

Life would be so much simpler if Garmin would just come up with a desk top equivalent for the new tread app. Then none of us would have to try and create our routes on ridiculously small phone screens or on the Zumo XT itself. I still can't understand why Garmin has dropped the ball so badly by denying us a simple way to create routes etc., on a large screen. BLOODY BONKERS!

When this happens to me, I press skip. I have my ships as prompted so I can see which point it is I'm skipping. The device then puts me back on the route. Depending on how far I've gone, I might have to skip 2 points.

Why don't you just use Base Camp and skip all the other?

[smfollen]

@Sean OZ

Life would be so much simpler if Garmin would just come up with a desk top equivalent for the new tread app.

I, and probably many others, agree. Unfortunately Garmin needs to hear from many, many users before they do anything. You can tell them here garmin.com/ideas

Created a route firstly using Google "My Maps". I then download the "native" KMZ file that Google My Maps created.

I then converted the KMZ file to a GPX file using the "My Geodata Convertor" website. Then downloaded the newly converted GPX file to my windows PC and imported the GPX file into base camp.

In case it helps you, I created my own software to convert tracks from Google My Maps and/or Rever directly to Garmin style routes, preserving the original waypoints. It is entirely free, no strings attached. You can learn about it here https://youtu.be/81R5TjPrVVI and download version 2.1 from here https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Rianz ... sp=sharing

Everything seemed to be working well until about 40 minutes into the ride when I decided to purposefully deviate from the Zumo's on-screen route. Zumo was able to recalculate the route, but from then on it only wanted to send me back to the turn off I had "missed"

Yes, this is RUT. Making a copy as you mentioned will avoid that behavior. Note that initially, turning back may be the best way to go, but eventually, with the copied route, the zumo will forge ahead.

[jfheath]

I've been reading up on how making a copy the original route and track data imported into the XT2 and then using the copied file may be a way to stop the XT2 entering into RUT behavior. I'll next ride up to the same place I encountered the RUT problems today with a "copied" route file and see if that kills the RUT. (Fingers Crossed) I won't get the chance for another 10 days or so, due to upcoming work obligations.

I am confident that your copied route will behave properly. But please share what you find !!

The key thing is to know whether you have RUT behaviour or whether the XT / XT2 wanting you to perform a U turn is actually the most sensible routing decision that the Zumo can make. If you turn off a plotted route, the XT and XT2 are perfectly entitled to say - "Oi you, stupid idiot, the route I have plotted will get you to the next route point in 10 miles/10 minutes. Going your way will take 20 miles/20 minutes. In quarter of a mile make a U turn."

Although it doesn't often say the first bit, it would be quite right in doing so. It would continue to be quite right in doing so for the next 5 miles/5 minutes. You haven't entered a RUT just because it keeps asking for a U turn every quarter of a mile for the next 5 miles.
After 5 miles, it is 15 miles to the next route point whichever way you go. So some time after that you could expect it to say - "Ok then, you're still a stupid idiot but we wil continue this way. Continue on B1234." (Again it doesn't often say that first sentence).

There are more definite indications of being stuck in a RUT - but you need to stop at the roadside and get screen shots to prove it.
In the attached screen shot the XT was stuck in a RUT loop. I am at the green flag less than 3 miles from my final destination. The magenta line is the route that the XT wants to take me in order to reach that point. This situation is described with detailed explanation and pictures here.

A1 RUT Example.png (101.64 KiB) Viewed 1745 times

How to force a RUT situation.

• Chose a route with a section that has two distinct options - eg take 1 side of a triangle or two sides of a triangle.
• Know where the tipping point is - the point where it is shorter and faster to continue ahead than it is to turn back.
• Place a Via point before these two options and a via point after. No other route points between on either option.
• Place a 'Skip Via Point' about a mile after the start point.
• Start the route. Pass through the start point and then skip the 'Skip Via Point' - to force the Zumo to recaclculate the route.
• At the triangle, whichever way the Zumo has calculated, take the other option.
• See what happens. If the Zumo is still demanding U turns after the tipping point - you may be in a RUT.

When tested as above the XT and XT2 have always displayed RUT behaviour - although the XT2 sometimes escapes from it earlier.
If a route is fooled into thinking it is a saved route. It cannot be forced to display RUT behaviour in identical circumstances.

RUT behaviour can be completely avoided
1. By setting the mImported flag from 1 to 0 in the appropriate Trip file - eg by using @FrankB's Javawa tool.
2. By resaving the active route in the Zumo XT
3. By making a copy of the route before it is loaded in the XT2.
4. By creating a route using the Tread App on the XT2 screen or in the tread app on an iphone/iPad or android.

I have never seen RUT behaviour on a route that has been created entirely on the XT or XT2, or created in the XT2's Tread app on a phone or tablet.

Turning off U turns doesn't prevent RUT behaviour, but it does make it easier to spot in the screen shots.

What to do if you do get stuck in a RUT loop.

Stop the bike so that you can operate your Zumo safely (and legally).

• Stop the route, reload it and select Closest Entry Point when you restart. But check the preview map. CEP has been observed to do very odd things - especially with U turns disabled.
• Mute the nav instructions and follwo a track of your route. (I always have a track displayed so I know where my original route was plotted should the Zumo recalculate it)
• Change the Avoidances to allow/disallow U turns. (Change it back to what it was if you wish). This does something rather unexpected. It forgets about what it was trying to do and seems to create a new route at your current position leading to the next route point.

The last one is a gem - but I have only checked it on the XT2. I discovered it just a few weeks ago.

U-Turn settings are in Settings->Navigation->Avoidances.

[Treve]

Hi
I have read the most in this tread and as a new XT2-user I have learned so mutch. Many thanks to al and especially to "jfheath". I can´t understand how you find time to learn al. I noticed the line below written by "Sean OZ"

Fortunately I had set up the Zumo XT2 to show both the route and the track info at the same time on the same on-screen map.

I have tried most of the menus but cant find how to do this. Could anybody pleas help me?

One more thing - To copy a imported route prevents RUT - do I also need to copy the imported track?

I use BC as my route-planer and are happy with it. But maybe I should learn to use the Tread app on a future tablet.
Today I copy al the GPX-files to a temp-map on my harddrive in order to have proper names in to the SD-card onboard my XT2
Find "category" as i nice feature.

Many thanks for al
Anders