Tread Changes Exisiting Routes - Shaping Point Issues

[jfheath]

I have an ongoing dialog with Garmin support on that issue. They indicated a short time ago that they are working to determine what the issue is. I will update here as I learn more.

That sounds familiar. My query was 'with the development team' for almost two years. All the promises came to nothing, and the issue that I reported is still present in the XT2. It seems as though they have disguised the symptoms by limiting the number of times that the XT2 will demand a U turn in succession - which maybe forces it to look further ahead for a better way. So that might suggest that they acknowledged the problem, even though my XT2 still behaves the same my various test routes.

I'm of the opinion that a few lone voices have little or no impact on producing fixes even if they do identify real concerns. BMW seemed to have some clout when their Nav V and Nav VI were produced by Garmin - based on the 590 and 595, or so I believe.

But I have emailed them about this issue. No reply yet. I'll try a phone call next.

I had an interesting issue yesterday. I just created a waypoint for my destination 100 miles away, for an overnight stay. No route, just selected 'Where To' and selected the waypoint.

As we approached the area in which the hotel is located, the satnav had me turning to the right off the main road. I was expecting a left turn. I followed it into a new housing estate, and then got the dotted straight line to go off road to the end of its route.

Except, it wasn't my destination. It was some other location. My destination was marked with a waypoint flag on the XT2 screen and it was further along the main road to the left.

So whatever it did - it seems as though it used my Waypoint as a guide to plot the route, but it didn't recognise it as a valid place - perhaps looked up the coordinates and found the nearest point that it knew ?? But that was through somebody's garden and into the field beyond. So whatever it did, it still couldn't get to it by road.

My hotel Waypoint was not plotted on a road. I had used the search facility to find the hotel and saved that. It was close enough to the actual building, which was up a long private drive. But ith's rather worrying if it changes the final destination by about half a mile and doesn't even take you to its own waypoint.

Odd thing is, I cannot reproduce it now - so maybe something happened mid route. I'll have to keep an eye on this, see if it happens again. I never checked the route end point when it first created the route. Maybe it is just the database that is wrong. There was more than one result with the same name for the search results.

[proofresistant]

I have already written it in another thread, here again, because my experience / reconstruction of the problem fits better here.

The Tread APP changes planned points!

I have a small example:
1st. Route and track from Basecamp.
2nd. Without Zumo XT2 only imported into the Tread app.
3rd. 1st result: The sharpening points are changed and moved after the import into the In Tread App.
4th. Attempts to manually place a sharpening point so that the route also follows the desired track.
5th. The Tread app also changes this point so quickly that you hardly notice it (see video in attached 20240925_220545.zip)

I find this behavior unacceptable!
If I plan a route (in this example past a Yamaha dealer without necessarily having to stop there) then the XT2 should also take me there.

[jfheath]

We have the same issues being discussed in two threads. Ive just replied in the other. When I get home I will try to get the relevant posts in the same thread. Most if today will be spent in a waiting room with only an ipad for company.

[proofresistant]

@jfheath i am agree with you
As soon as the tread app is in action, the shaping points will be changend

That is true for:

• Basecamp produced GPX files
• BC produced gpx files with the Subclass fields stripped out.
• Routes from anywhere with start stop and one shaping point
• Routes from anywhere with Start Stop and two shaping points.
• Identical route imported into the tread app, exported as a gpx file and loaded in the same way as any other gpx file.
• Identical route exported as a gpx from MyRouteApp.

It is not true for:

• Direct Routes - ie straight lines. The shaping points stay where they are.
• A route with a start, stop and Via points. The via points retain their name and stay where they are.

And sometimes the collaboration with the Tread app changes parts of routes significantly.

So, I have tried to reproduce the experiences as an example.

My issue guide has been created.
The details are described in the Excel sheet “_Tread_Shaping_Point_Issue_Guide.xlsx”.
All files used are in the “_Tread_Shaping_Point_Issue_Guide.zip” file.

I tried routes from another source, which were also saved with Basecamp, calculated there or not, with shaping or with via points and with faster time or direct calculation.

The collection may be helpful.
File name interpretation:
WK = Example area around Wermelskirchen (Germany)
Tyre = Route origin from Tyre 2 Navigate desktop app
BC = Route imported and saved in BaseCamp
BCcCN = Route imported, calculated with City navigator map and saved in BaseCamp
11 = gpx version="1.1”
ShpPts = Route optimization by sharpening points
ViaPts = Route with via stops
11pur = pure gpx 1.1 as lean as possible or direct routing

The issues can already be guessed if you try to edit the routes “only” in the Tread app, because even the smallest changes are enough for the Tread app to make its own interpretation.

[jfheath]

Please - if you have this issue, report it to Garmin

Don't think - "Oh It's Ok , I don't need to do anything - @jfheath and @smfollen have reported it".
If we are the only two, then nothing is likely to happen." It needs a lot of complaints. One example is enough to illustrate the issue.

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Communication with Garmin Product Support

I reported this issue to Product support on 13 Sept 24. @smfollen has already lodged the issue with them and I wanted to make sure that my findings were bomb proof and that they did not differ from what he has already reported.

I received a reply on 1 October - with an apology for taking so long. 2.5 weeks is not that bad actually. It felt longer though.
They requested some specific details. The text below are their requests in bold and my reply in quoted blocks.

Device Serial Number: 7V8 023 xxx
Software version 4.70
Error Message – no errors, but I have sent a lot of screen shots in a pdf uploaded as requested.

The specific issue:

If I import a route as a GPX file into the XT2, the route is altered so that it is very different from the planned route.

• The Via Points remain approximately in the correct location. A new route is drawn between the Via points.
• The shaping points are completely ignored - a new route is drawn for each segment between the Via Points and new shaping points are placed on the newly drawn route.
• The new route is no longer on the roads that I want to follow.

What happened Prior to the the issue occurring

Nothing of significance. I have tried various scenarios including :

• Deleting all Routes, tracks, waypoints, Collections from the XT2 and from the Tread App on the smartphone;
• Restoring the Zumo XT2 to its original state;
• Deleting and reinstalling the Tread App which is currently the latest version - v2.08.37 for the Android system
• Repeating the same tests in different scenarios with the same data and then with different data.

The same behaviour can be observed in most routes.

Attempts to resolve the Issue

1. Checking status of route at different stages – with Tread not connected.
   • Immediately after transferring GPX files to SD card and rebooting the XT2.
   • Immediately after Import – by inspecting Current.gpx
   • Immediately after Selecting the route and viewing preview map
   • Immediately after loading route.
   • When running the route
2. Checking the above with Tread connected.

The result of this is that I discovered that the route does not change if the Tread App cannot synchronise to the XT2 – eg if the phone is off; if BT is disconnected; If the tread app is swiped off the screen.

Does this occur with Every Route synchronised through the Tread App?

It has only happened so far if shaping points are used in the route. When the XT2 modifies the route, it takes faster roads and seems to move the shaping points to that faster route. I cannot tell whether the shaping points are moved first and the route follows the new points, or whether the XT2 plots a new faster route for the current segment and then places shaping points on that route. I suspect the latter.

Typically I use shaping points to force the XT2 to take more interesting roads – so with that in mind the answer is Yes – it happens with almost all of my routes. But if I were to plot a route where shaping points are placed on the road that the XT2 is going to plot anyway, I wouldn’t notice much of a change.

I am aware that the Zumo nearly always modifies the name and position of every route point – slightly. But these aren’t slight modifications that I am talking about. These are route points being moved onto completely different roads.

Are the apps in Garmin Explore first and then being synced to the device?

No. Most of my routes have been created as GPX files using different software:

• This is the way that I prefer to work. The Tread App has particular issues for creating routes which make it more difficult to use than other route planning software. I prefer Basecamp which I know is no longer supported – but this is not a Basecamp issue – I tested the behaviour with routes from other software – including Shared from Tread as a GPX file. The same thing happens. So it is an Imported GPX issue. I’ve included a couple of gpx files that I used to test this.
• I have created a PDF file with screenshots and explanations. The pages reference the gpx files that were used to test the behaviour.
• Every route was placed as a GPX file onto the SD card – so that the XT2 would not change the contents. The Tread app on the mobile phone was installed, but it was not active – it had been swiped off the screen. This prevents it from Synching with the XT2. Mine is an android phone, but it does the same thing if I use the ipad. That observation has made it much easier to test.
• I then selected each route in turn, obtained the preview map and got the screen shots that I required.
• Then I loaded up the tread app and left it for a while to synchronise with the XT2. Then loaded each route again in turn, obtained the preview map and obtained a screenshots of the changed route.

It may be worth commenting that when selecting the synchronised route, that the XT2 often displays a calculating message – sometimes failing to calculate – but then succeeding on the 2nd attempt. This doesn’t happen when selecting the original route which has been imported from the GPX file.

Use of Via Points

The Via points do not seem to be affected by this glitch in the same way as Shaping Points. Yes they are moved slightly – which is annoying if you have obtained the point from a collection of Waypoints, because the slightly inaccurate Via is used instead of the Waypoint. But that small modification doesn’t usually affect the entire route.

However – using only Via Points to create a route is not a solution.

I will send the files by following the instructions in the link you provided. The pdf file contains all of the description and the screen shots. 9 pages. Mainly pictures with brief notes. I also reference which gpx file was used for that particular route. These will be sent as named individual files.

The attached pdf file is the document that I sent as evidence. The thumbnail below is a pretty picture of a double sheet view of two of the pages - it doesn't link to anywhere. I just like to have pretty pictures in posts !

I doubt anyone will want to see the gpx files, but I'll post them if you want to repeat the same experiments.

Product Support Thumbnail.png (51.32 KiB) Viewed 1389 times

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I received a reply to this post almost immediately - thanking me for the level fo detail and clarity in the pdf file. They wanted to know one more thing:

Did this happen if the route had been created first using the tread app and then synched to the XT2 ?

I had already indicated that if a route is created in the Tread app and then exported / shared and the resulting gpx file is placed in the SD card of the XT2 then that route suffers the same problem as any route - the shaping points move and the route changes.

But I carried out a couple of checks re-drawing routes already tested purely using the Tread App. I reminded myself of why it is such a pain to use but was able to confirm that these routes behaved perfectly. Shaping points were not moved, routes were not altered.

[proofresistant]

Please - if you have this issue, report it to Garmin

Don't think - "Oh It's Ok , I don't need to do anything - @jfheath and @smfollen have reported it".
If we are the only two, then nothing is likely to happen." It needs a lot of complaints. One example is enough to illustrate the issue.

Of course I want to report the problem to Garmin.
This is the main reason why I have taken the trouble to create my hopefully easy-to-follow guide.
I will also try to register it as a complaint.

I had already indicated that if a route is created in the Tread app and then exported / shared and the resulting gpx file is placed in the SD card of the XT2 then that route suffers the same problem as any route - the shaping points move and the route changes.

But I carried out a couple of checks re-drawing routes already tested purely using the Tread App. I reminded myself of why it is such a pain to use but was able to confirm that these routes behaved perfectly. Shaping points were not moved, routes were not altered.

Again, my full agreement.
Not only is the operation unreasonable for complex routes, it is also sometimes a game of patience to place sharpening points.
See also my shared video zip file above.

[jfheath]

One issue with shaping points is that you have no control over where in the route they are placed.

Eg you have Vias and shaping points like this

V1 S2 S3 S4 V2

So you select the segment between V1 and V2 and place a point on the map between S2 and S3 and at it as a shaping point. It looks ok on the map, but in the route list it is placed AFTER S4. Since they are all named Shaping Point, it is very difficult to spot this.

On the ipad, it doesn't allow you to move shaping point within the route list. The Android app does but it is impossible to use.

To stand any chance, you have to add your shaping points in the correct sequence - which isn't how most people plan their routes.

The only way is to create them all as Via points, name them properly and later change them to shaping.
But often the route changes when you do that. I've just done a vide to send to Garmin support - because I think that us the root of this problem.

[Oop North John]

The only way is to create them all as Via points, name them properly and later change them to shaping.
But often the route changes when you do that. I've just done a vide to send to Garmin support - because I think that us the root of this problem.

I now only use via points but ones I would have only had as shaping points I add "SP" to their name to stop the Tread app messing about with them. A downside of this is that you don't see past them if you call up the ahead turns via the top left of the screen. But, at least the shaping point is where I want it to be.

[Regain]

Hello to the Forum. Tread changing my routes after syncing has been bugging me a lot too. I've been looking for answers on the MRA and Facebook forum but with no real result.

What about doing this each time: as Tread always seems to grab hold of routes and does its own thing, why not let Tread own them from the very start. Build the route wherever you build them (I use MRA) then before sending it to the XT2 (cable or Tread), export it to Tread as gpx1.1 and see if it follows the track. If it does, marvellous but if it doesn't, add some more shaping points in MRA where needed, delete the first effort from Tread, export the amendment from MRA and check again. Once your magenta line follows the track exactly, edit in Tread, save the name then Save & Exit. I have done this before and it seemed to work so I'd be happy to know if anyone has a reason why this might not be an answer. It's not too laborious working between a laptop and phone on a route or just do it all on the phone for a Tread sync.

I've tried all sorts before to make my routes agreeable to Tread and the XT2 with hit and miss results. I thought using the MRA 'expand' option to add more shaping points would work but Tread doesn't like that, possibly because the extra points are placed haphazardly. By the time you've altered them you may as well have just placed them yourself.

Like previous users mention, even bypassing Tread via a cable won’t always work if Tread doesn't agree with your route once it has synced with the XT2. I did send some MRA gpx1.2 routes via cable for a weekend motorcycle event and Tread didn’t seem to mess with those but that may be because I had to use several Via points on both fairly short route for each waypoint we had to visit. Multiple Via points cluttering up a map along a route are also not the answer, especially where you want freedom to deviate.

It would seem that unless something changes (and it might, given the representations), Tread has to own the route otherwise it might just destroy what it does not. May be one of Garmin's famous 'by design' features.

Thoughts on this?

[jfheath]

Welcome to the forum @Regain .

Thanks for your comment. It sounds like you are puzzling over this one as well.

It would be helpful if you would report you dissatisfaction to Garmin product.support@garmin.com

Give it a clear title, and outline what is happening. Basically, your shaping points are being ignored. Don't give them a way out - they don't support Basecamp, but they do support gpx files. The route moves your shaping point to a different location.
But any opportunity to blame the problem on another product, they will take it. They cannot possibly spend resources looking into odd behaviour when other software is being used.

One thing I have noticed in the Tread App on the phone and on the XT itself is that if you build a route with only Via points (Stops) The route generally behaves itself. Once the route is complete, you can then change the Stops to shaping points. Sometimes the previous shaping points are moved, sometimes not. It seems to work better if you change points against the flow of the route - backwards.

Using the track as a guide is an excellent idea - especially on a small screen where it is necessary to keep zooming in and out just to see where you are on the map.

A route from MRA or basecamp, exported as a gpx file will work and the position of the shaping and via points will remain intact as long as the XT2 is not allowed to synchronise with the tread app. With v1.1 from MRA, there are only route points, so the XT2 will recalculate anyway - but with the XT and the XT2 we have come to expect the route to be recalculated. But my normal rule of putting shaping points to prevent routing along a nearby faster road will still work. Eg one point in the middle of the section, or two points at roughly 1/3 intervals. 'A section' being a stretch of road where it is not feasible to get back to the faster road.

But as soon as the XT2 is allowed to synch to the tread app it seems to ignore shaping points, plot the route using the chosen preferences between the via points, and place new shaping points on the calculated route. Not all original shaping points are ignored though, and I can't work out what it is doing.

Clising down the tread app on the phone seems to prevent this from happening. On the Android, swiping it off the screen does the trick, but it leaves tread able to handle traffic data, weather, messages and roadworks On my ipad if I swipe Tread off the screen Tread is no longer shown as connected on the XT2. But my ipad isn't a phone, so maybe those other things will work if an iphone was used rather than an ipad. ?

I ought to provide an update on where I am with tech support. I'll do that separately.