Zumo XT Glitches

[FrankB]

Dear [mention]jfheath[/mention]

Yes, I have tried circular routes. But probably different from your scenario. What I tend to do:
- If I need to drive the last piece of the route first: I will select GO/END. When arriving at the end I select GO/BEGIN
- I I can start at the beginning: GO/BEGIN. Of course I have to make sure to 'hit' the beginning, else it will keep directing me back until I have done so.

Another point I would like to make. If you convert the track to a trip and use the converted trip to navigate, the results are as expected. On the Zumo: Tracks/Select the track/Hit the tool icon/Convert to trip.
This is what I mentioned earlier as the 'MRGPS Method'. You can find that on Youtube, but it's all in Dutch.
Essentially all the via points and shaping point (except the begin and end of course) get deleted. All that is kept are the ghost point, as you call them. The Zumo loses all information to recalculate the route, and that works.

[jfheath]

The closest entry point glitch - update.
This feature is leaving me baffled. V2.30 and 2.40 it did not work very well at all. It did something, but came up with some really odd results.

Downloading 2.50 was a two stage process for me the first download seemed to work reasonably well for Closest Entry Point.
A while later (a day or so), Express decided that there was another 2.50 update, which I also installed. Closest Entry Point worked brilliantly.

Since then I have installed 2.60, 2.70, 2.80 and am currently on v2.90 of the software. I didn't do any tests with any of these until 2.90. At first closest entry point seemed to find a route to the closest 'Next Destination - ie the closest Via Point. A couple of days later I installed a couple of add-ons to do with texts and translation. The unit demanded a restart, and I also cleared all of my settings - using the hidden menu from the speed button on the map screen. (Map->Speed->Hold top centre speed circular display for 10 secs and clear all user data). Some time after this I tested Closest Entry Point again.

Garmin Express updated itself twice in two days.

I used an existing route. Put satnav into simulation made and set my position to be somewhere to one side of the middle of the route, making sure that I was at a location which was close to the magenta route where there were no shaping points, and where there was a more direct route to get to the next Via Point. Started the route and selected #Closest Entry Point'. It took me exactly where I expected it to. To the part of the route that was closest to me, then through two shaping points and then to the Via Point.

Previously it had refused to take notice of the shaping points and headed for the closest Via Point.

So it seems to be working. I'm not sure why it wasn't working before, but I documented it so I am not mistaken about what it did previously. Same version of the software - unless there was a patch installed with the other downloads. I don't know if it was something I did or something Garmin did (I had reported the fault to Garmin, but as yet have had no reply).

Maybe its to do with the number of cold restarts after installing new software. I'm stumped. But it now seems to be doing closest entry properly. But that is after just one test, so I'll do a few more, see what happens.

[jfheath]

The closest entry point glitch - update.
This feature is leaving me baffled. V2.30 and 2.40 it did not work very well at all. It did something, but came up with some really odd results.

Downloading 2.50 was a two stage process for me the first download seemed to work reasonably well for Closest Entry Point.
A while later (a day or so), Express decided that there was another 2.50 update, which I also installed. Closest Entry Point worked brilliantly.

Since then I have installed 2.60, 2.70, 2.80 and am currently on v2.90 of the software. I didn't do any tests with any of these until 2.90. At first closest entry point seemed to find a route to the closest 'Next Destination - ie the closest Via Point. A couple of days later I installed a couple of add-ons to do with texts and translation. The unit demanded a restart, and I also cleared all of my settings - using the hidden menu from the speed button on the map screen. (Map->Speed->Hold top centre speed circular display for 10 secs and clear all user data). Some time after this I tested Closest Entry Point again.

Garmin Express updated itself twice in two days.

I used an existing route. Put satnav into simulation made and set my position to be somewhere to one side of the middle of the route, making sure that I was at a location which was close to the magenta route where there were no shaping points, and where there was a more direct route to get to the next Via Point. Started the route and selected #Closest Entry Point'. It took me exactly where I expected it to. To the part of the route that was closest to me, then through two shaping points and then to the Via Point.

Previously it had refused to take notice of the shaping points and headed for the closest Via Point.

So it seems to be working. I'm not sure why it wasn't working before, but I documented it so I am not mistaken about what it did previously. Same version of the software - unless there was a patch installed with the other downloads. I don't know if it was something I did or something Garmin did (I had reported the fault to Garmin, but as yet have had no reply). (The XT has not been set up to use Wifi for updates. I want to know what it is doing and when, so I still use the USB and express to update software).

Maybe its to do with the number of cold restarts after installing new software. I'm stumped. But it now seems to be doing closest entry properly. But that is after just one test, so I'll do a few more, see what happens.

[FrankB]

[mention]jfheath[/mention]
If I understand correctly your route now works correctly on V2.90. Could you please share? I would like to try the route on my unit. Thanks in advance.

[jfheath]

Yes - I'll post it - give me chance to put a decent test together. You'll need the same maps as me to be able to test it properly. I'm using City Navigator Europe NTU 2021.1

I'll post the results that I get as screen shots on here too.

[jfheath]

I have done a fair bit of testing with v2.90 firmware, and I have to say that Closest Entry Point is the best that I have seen this feature operate to date.

But I have tested v2.90 before, soon after it came out, and I was less than impressed. This may have been circumstantial, but worth noting is that since that test I have used Garmin Express to update 3 files which I believe should not affect the software function. Text Translation, Cyclopse updates and the like. Also Garmin Express needed an update twice on consecutive days - I have V 7.1.2.0, installed earlier this week. I just loaded it to read the version number and a new version 7.1.3.0 is now avaliable.

After those updates I tried these lengthy tests and Closest Entry Point was working (almost) very predictably).
I used Basecamp to create the route and to transfer it Via USB cable to the Zumo XT.

What I found was:

The CEP function attempts to navigate the rider from the current position to the closest point on the route.
This is irrespective of location of Shaping Points or Via Points. It picks a point on the planned route and heads for that
It then continues along the planned route follwoing the shaping points and Via Points in the correct order.
It ignores any Shaping Points and Via Points that are behind the point of entry.
I looked for, but found no difference in behaviour for any routing point that was first created as a Waypoint, or a routepoint that was 'dropped' into place using the insert tool or the route tool. This odd behaviour had been observed in a previous version of the XT's firmware.

One unexplained anomaly

On a few occasions, the CEP function calculated a perfectly sensible route, but it did not head for the closest route point. AFter much messing around, it seems that when this happened, If I forced a recalculation of the route by (say) ticking / unticking U-turn as an avoidance and loading the route again to select the closest entry point, it produced a correct result. It didn't matter whether I ticked or unticked it, as long as it was changed so that the route recalculated when it was loaded. If I subsequently set it back to what it was, I still got the correct route.


I have a simplified image of my test route shown below.
There are 5 Via Point (including start and finish) and 9 Shaping points. They are lettered V or S (Via, Shaping) and then numbered consecutively
eg V01 S02 S03 V04 S05 ... etc.

There are also a number of Check Points - places to position the bike to test what the stanav will do when the route is started from there and Closest Entry Point is selected. These are labelled Ch01 Ch02 Ch03 Ch04 ......etc. I have created these as Waypoints so that they are plotted on the map, but do not appear in the route itself.

All of these along with the shaping points, via points and the route itself are included in the attached gpx file.
(Modified from the original gdb file - 30 Aug 2020)

CEP Waypoints - All Waypoints.gpx

(277.3 KiB) Downloaded 410 times

The route was created using City Navigator Europe NTU 2021.10


I've run out of time. I intended to post a map of the results, but anyone that wants to do their own testing to see if we share the same result - you now have the same tools that I used. I'm not saying that these findings are definitive - but they are still findings, and Iafter carrying out these tests, I have a lot mor confidence in using it.

I have a document which describes and illustrates each of the tests from each of the Ch check points - but it needs thoroughly checking over before I publish that.

Simplified Image of the Test Route

Simplified Im age of the Route.

CEP Test Map Route and Points.jpg (127.05 KiB) Viewed 2318 times

Nb All of these tests were carried out on a Zumo XT, using BAsecamp while sitting at my desk. This is perfectly acceptable and does not require any testing in the field. As soon as you select GO! and then choose closest entry point, the Zumo draws a map on the screen. The map shows all of the blue circle shaping points, and the flag Via Points. It draws the route to be travelled from the current position onwards. You can see which shaping points and via points have been missed out. Here is one such, where the closest entry point is to the right of the map and the shaping points are clearly visible. The start of the route is not shown - at this stage of the trip, it is irrelevant.

Eg Route.jpg (32.7 KiB) Viewed 2318 times

To carry out a simulated test.

Turn off GPS in the Navigation section. If at any time it asks if you wish to simulate riding, say no.
MAke sure that there isn't a route currently active. If there is, press 'X' Stop.

Before you do this, make sure you have transferred any routes that you need to have in the Zumo. Transferring them via USB will certainly turn GPS back on again when it restarts.

Show the map on the screen. Touch the screen, a blue flag will be placed where you touched. Ignore it. Press the arrowhead top left to put north at the top of the screen. If the arrow head isn't there, it will reappear when you touch the screen again. Try not to tocuh the flag - it opens up another window. Zoom Out (the minus key) . Scan around the map to find the area where you wish to place the motorbike, and zoom in (+) to find the exact location. Place the map precisely - zoom in as far as you need to and if you get it wrong tap somewhere else and have another go in the original place.

A message will appear at the bottom of the screen giving the name of the location. Check the flag is where you want it and tap the bar with the name on it. The screen will split into two halves - the right half shows the map, the left half shows detail, coordinats, arrival time and such like. Ignore all of that and press the down arrow at the left of the screen. Press it and a number of buttons pop up, one of which should be 'Set Location'.
Press it. (If it isn't there, then it is probably because you currently have a route running. Go back to the home screen at tap the X stop button. Start again.)

The motorcycle will now be in the location you selected. Back out, and if you view the map, te bike will be centred in that location on the map. 'GPS is Off' will appear across the top of the screen.

Warning - if you let the Zumo 'Time Out' it may turn the GPS back on again. Don't let it time out by puttin it down to go and make a cup of tea !

You can now load up the routes, say Go. and select Closest Entry Point. The map that comes up next is all that you need to see.

If you want to enable / disable U turns, back out to the main screen - alter the settings under Navigation and load the route again.

[FrankB]

Thank you for sharing your route. I think I have found a pattern, maybe obvious, but it has just occured to me. First let me clarify the nomenclature.

There are Via-points, also called sometimes hard waypoints, they appear in Basecamp as 'Alert on Arrival', on the XT they show up as a Flag.
And you have Shaping-points, also called sometimes soft-waypoints, in Basecamp shown as 'Dont alert on Arrival', on the XT there is only a small dot.
In the past I have been told to use Via-Points sparingly. there's a limit on the number you can use (25 i believe) and if you miss the point, the XT (as with other Zumo's) insists to make a U-Turn.

What I have found that if a route consist of Via-Points, like the one you posted, closest entry point works fine. Even the route that I posted earlier will work fine, provided that shaping points are first converted to Via-Points.
On the other hand, if a route consist of only, or mainly, shaping points then results become unpredictable. If I convert your route so it only contains shaping points. the CH04 and CH05 will give you 'cannot calculate route', and CH06 will yield a different route. Even more if I start on the B6160 just south of Buckden, i get a very weird result!

So to put it more precisely. Using Closest Entry Point on a route that contains only shaping points can give unpredictable results.

[jfheath]

I'll get back to you on this, but that is not what I found, and the hard and soft waypoints terminology doesn't match with what I know. A waypoint doesn't have to be aprt of a route. And a route point doesn't have to be a waypoint - in fact it often isn't.

Do you have v2.90 and all additional upgrades installed ? (eg Cyclopse and Text translations ?).

[FrankB]

Yes. All up to date.

I am aware that waypoints are not perse part of a route. I called them either via-points, those are the red flags on the XT, or shaping-point, blue dots on the XT.

The 'CEP Route - All Waypoints' that you posted only has 'red flags' on the XT. ('Alert on Arrival' in Basecamp).
The route I posted earlier had just 1 'red flag', the hotel, all the others were 'blue dots'. ('Dont alert on Arrival' in Basecamp).
I'm convinced that that makes the difference with the 'Closest Entry Point'.

I only used the terms hard and soft waypoints because that's what they are sometimes called (in the Netherlands). Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. Please bear with my, i'm not native English!

[jfheath]

No, my apologies. I hadn't noticed your nationality flag, and certainly hadn't spotted that English isn't your first language !

The route I posted is indeed all waypoints. That is, I created every single point as a Waypoint in Basecamp, using the waypoint 'flag' tool. These appear in the favourites list on the Zumo. I then built the route around all of those points. I then made the S points into non alerting shaping points. The V point i kept as alerting Via Points.

I posted the one that was made with all waypoints because they keep their name when they are transferred to the Zumo. Other points do not.

Now if yours is showing all flags, then either I have posted the wrong file - an early version of the route, or there is something else going on. I will check that and repost it if I have made that error.

Once that was created, i created another route using the same 5 Via points, but using the insert tool to drop shaping point where the original waypoints were for the shaping points

Every test, I performed twice - once using the route with shaping points that started life as shaping points, one using shaping points that started life as Stored Waypoints. Through every test, both routes produced identical results.

Now since I received my Zumo XT, I have been trying to work out what Closest Entry Point. V2.30 I found to be ridiculously bad at finding the closest point of the route. It made an effort but it seemed to do some really unpredictable things.

V 2.50 came to my machine in two upgrades. I upgraded it once, and the following day another 2.50 upgrade was available. This worked really very well. But before that, my test seemed to suggest very strongly that CEP was in fact aiming for the Via Points. Not the shaping points. Unless the shaping points were created as waypoints before putting them into the route ! It seemed to suggest that perhaps the terms waypoints, via points and shaping point used by the programmers were maybe different from the same terms defined on Garmins website.

V 2.60 seemed to get it all wrong again, and I stopped experimenting. When I first tested v2.90 it seemed to work reliably, but it only ever selected the closest Via Point. Never a shaping point, not even if it had been a Waypoint when it was created, and then added to the route.

There hasn't been an upgrade to the software since that test - it is still on V2.90.
But since then I have:
Installe2 2 new versions of Garmin Express (I update via Usb cable, not by wifi).
There have been 3 other upgrades of 1-2 mins, supposedly to do with translation, text and cyclopse.
I have cleared out all of my data - using the option on the hidden system menu ****
I have restarted the Xt from cold a few times. On one of these, after downloading some small update, it gave a message saying it was installing software and then restarted.

I dont remember the order of these things, but subsequently my closest entry point tests worked perfectly as I expected. With a couple of small glitches whic I solved to my satisfaction.

*** hidden system menu. On the navigation map display, press the speed button. On the next display press and hold for 10 secs the speed in the circular display in the top, middle part of the screen. Theres all sorts of stuff in there, including the ability to wipe out data and reset the machine.

I'll check which file I actually sent ........ I'll be back .

Ah - that's interesting. I Posted the correct route with Via and Shaping Points. You received one with all Via Points.
What ? Why ?

Well, it appears that if I export the route and routepoints as a GDB file, when you reopen it, all of the shaping points have been converted to Via Points. If I export them as a GPX file, that doesn't happen. How strange ? Sorry about that - I didn't know that happened.

I haven't changed any of the route that I exported !

I've replaced the gdb file in the post above.

Here it is again.

CEP Waypoints - All Waypoints.gpx

(277.3 KiB) Downloaded 433 times

Probably best to recalculate the route in Basecamp before transferring it.