Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by Peobody »

rbentnail wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:38 am I've yet to figure out this "follow the track" thing. I simply can't see it on the screen unless I zoom in to about 200 ft and then it's useless.
I know this has been discussed before so I'm sure I'm these comments are repeats but here goes...
1. The track is only readily visible when it is not hidden (covered) by the route line. When a recalc changes the route, you will see the route line go one way and the track line will go another.
2. Track width and track color are important. I set width to Wider and color to Black.
3. When you enable a track to show on the map it will be visible when viewing the map without any route loaded. You can use it to help in determining the width and color that works best for you.
3. Themes affect how things are displayed. I played around with some of the options as well as attempting to make an acceptable custom one but ended up returning to the Garmin one. I don't recall if I tested them with tracks but if you are not using the Garmin one you might want to change to it and then test a track display.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by jfheath »

Recalculation of the route. A few pieces of information:

When you skip a point when riding with the XT, it keeps the remaining points, but it recalculates the route between the remaining points.
This is different from the 590 / 595 which just calculated the section from the current position to the next route point.

This means that the 'ghost points' from Basecamp that hold a route in place are essentially useless on the XT - as soon as it recalculates.
This was one of the first issues that I reported to Garmin Support. I'll see if I can find the reply.

@rbentnail
Skipping a Via Point definitely does not remove the shaping points - but I think I know what it is that you are seeing.

There is an option in Basecamp which you need to set :

Edit -> Options -> Device Transfer

StripShPt.jpg
StripShPt.jpg (40.35 KiB) Viewed 1899 times
Untick all of the checkboxes. Then select 'Apply to All Devices'.

If you don't do this (some are set by default when Basecamp is installed), then when you transfer the route to the Zumo, it only transfers the Via Points. It doesn't transfer the shaping points. The route is held in place by the ghost points. But if you ever allow the Zumo to recalculate the route, it only has the Via Points to work with. And it calculates a route just using the Via Points. So probably htis is the first time that you notice that the shaping points are not there. I'm pretty sure if this is what is happening, the shaping points will not have been there in the first place. You just never noticed, because the route was going through the locations where you had shaping points.

Check your route in the Trip Planner App. The shaping points are shown as blue discs on the map and in the Trip Planner list of points. I think you may find that they were never there in the first place.

This feature is what I used to test test the beahviour of the 590/595 and the XT. Plan a route with shaping points and Via Points. I Put 4 Via points on cross roads on a main road, and between them put shaping points on side roads so that my route was zig-zagging from one side of the main road to the other - but never actually routing along the main road. Select the option to strip out the shaping points on transfer. Then transfer and load the route. Providing the maps match, the route will not be recalculated and the route from Basecamp will remain intact - zig-zagging exactly as it was - although it will not have any shaping points.

Start the route under simulation. Go past the start point, and then skip the next Via Point. Look and see what has happened to the route.
The 590 and 595 will show no difference to the later part of the route, although it will have calculated to the 2nd Via Point along the main road, but after the 2nd Via Point it will still zig-zag. The XT recalculates the entire route and follows the main road all of the way.

Whether this behaviour is right or wrong, I don't know. But it is what it is. It may make sense if you want to make use of traffic information, becasue it can only take that into account when it calculates a section. But if you leave the shaping points in place, it still has to route through all of the shaping and via points.

A word of caution for MRA users. You get the same behaviour if you export the route using GPX v1.2. This exported file keeps the Basecamp route intact, as it has all of the ghost points - but it strips out all of the Shaping Points. So again, as soon as the route recalculates, the route has only the Via Points to work with and it changes completely.

There is a brief summary here of how MRA route types behave - the following pages contain more detail.

app.php/ZXT-P72b

In both cases, if you want to follow the original route, do not allow it to recalculate.


@rbentnail

Regarding track visibility - you can change the colour of tracks and make them wider from the XT screen. Where exactly this is depends on whether or not you have Garmin Explore set up. This link points to the first of two pages on how to do this with and without Explore set up.
app.php/ZXT-P57

The above method changes the width of all tracks on the map, so if you want to show a track that is underneath a route, you may need to edit the theme with a text editor to make the track slightly wider than the route. This isn't as straight forward as I have made it sound - but I have made a theme that achieves this if you want a copy. You put it in witht he other Zumo themes and it appears on the list to select when you want. THe link above shows a screen shot of the green track peeping out from under the magenta route. Black stands out much better, and it is very obvious when the route and track head off in different directions.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:26 am 1. The track is only readily visible when it is not hidden (covered) by the route line. When a recalc changes the route, you will see the route line go one way and the track line will go another.
The first half is where my trouble lies, this is NOT TRUE!! The track line is so fine and narrow, it simply can't be seen unless I touch +++++++ to zoom so far in so as to make the map unreadable beyond 200 or so ft around me. What good is a map when you can see only 200 ft at a time?

The second part I get I see when zoomed way, way in.

Peobody wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:26 am 2. Track width and track color are important. I set width to Wider and color to Black.
I use the maximum width available and I've tried all the colors. These do nothing to make the track line wide or bold enough to see in normal magnification of the map.
Peobody wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:26 am 3. When you enable a track to show on the map it will be visible when viewing the map without any route loaded. You can use it to help in determining the width and color that works best for you.
No, unless I zoom way, way in I CANNOT see the track. That's my whole point! In normal magnification I CANNOT see the track.
Peobody wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:26 am 4. Themes affect how things are displayed. I played around with some of the options as well as attempting to make an acceptable custom one but ended up returning to the Garmin one. I don't recall if I tested them with tracks but if you are not using the Garmin one you might want to change to it and then test a track display.
I'm familiar with themes on the 595. I downloaded many to try and used several different ones regularly based on the conditions. I tried those on the XT but they don't work. I tried to follow some instructions but got lost and gave up. I think the extra brightness of the XT makes up the difference tho for ROUTES. For TRACKS I need something different, I just don't know what it is.

On the XT I am using the theme named 'Garmin' as all the custom themes I copied from the 595 don't work at all.



ETA: I gave up last summer when I tried b/c I could never get tracks to be useful to me. I haven't tried since. But there's been a few XT updates, perhaps I should try again.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by jfheath »

@rbentnail

If you are having trouble with XT navigation (and who isn't ?) then there are two reliable catch-all things that will get you out of a pickle.

One is to have the track displayed. The other is to disable U turns. I don't like U turns disable, because in Yorkshire, it can go 15 miles without finding an alternative place to turn round without doing a U turn. It then doubles you back to do the same 15 miles again. I prefer to know that it is wanting to navigate me a different way by allowing U turns. Although irritating, it inform me what it is up to.

So for unknown areas the last thing that I do in Basecamp for the XT are:

Recalculate all of the routes.
Create a track for every route
Transfer all of the routes and tracks to the XT

With a different theme - I use JH United Kingdom or JFH Garmin, which are my variations on the provided themes, the track becomes visible from underneath the route. With the track colour set as black and the track width (for all tracks) set 'Wider' ,as opposed to 'Normal' or 'Widest', I can see the black track underneath the magenta route, and the deviation is very obvious.

137377.png
137377.png (162.28 KiB) Viewed 1877 times

It's not perfect - sometimes the track displays really wide - when the map is redrawing, but only for a moment or two. It is perfectly good for navigation.

Let me know if you want a copy - I cannot post it here - the system will not allow it.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by rbentnail »

What I found on a 340-ish mile ride yesterday:

- regarding skipping a point,
1) all the points except the start & destination in my route are shaping points. This works beautifully with the 595 for which my routes were originally made. When I went off route and manually skipped a point, the XT routed me directly to my destination instead of using the remaining shaping points. I had to stop then restart the route but without any via points to go to the XT was a bit confused the first time. Stopped and restarted again when I got back onto the route and it did ok.
2) I have always had the boxes in the Transfer Mode Options unticked. For some reason the maps one is now. I unticked it.
3) I use Prompt to recalculate. Most of the time I say no b/c I'm just a little way off my route for fuel and eats. The option to NOT recalculate the entire route when skipping a point does not seem available.

- regarding tracks,
1) I did not use any yesterday as I did not want to deal with the stress.
2) in the simulation mode, the tracks seem to be different now, showing as a route would, even with the fuzzy line where the track and route overlap.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by Peobody »

rbentnail wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:09 am The option to NOT recalculate the entire route when skipping a point does not seem available.
Yup! Having occasional via points in the route helps with this and with providing points that you can select to navigate to.
@jfheath and others, what do you know about the stripping of shaping points by a recalc? As you know, I have been averse to shaping points but am evolving, so I have a lot of them in the routes of my upcoming trip. I may change them to Via's if they might get stripped. Worth consideration may be whether non-alerting Via points are handled differently than inserted shaping points (BaseCamp).

@rbentnail, it sounds like your track display may now be working. I sure hope so.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by Rofor »

Hmmm, are you sure about the Zumo XT not(!) using the shaping points while recalculating?

As far as we in the german Naviboard had found out, that, otherwise it was with the 'old' Zumo 59x series (recalculates ever to the next via point, if one is present and then to the end point, skipping all shaping points in the route), the Zumo XT does use the rest of the shaping points when recalculating. Our experiences where, that he recalculate the route towards the next shaping Point and then continues on the planned route?
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by Peobody »

Rofor wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:50 pm the Zumo XT does use the rest of the shaping points when recalculating. Our experiences where, that he recalculate the route towards the next shaping Point and then continues on the planned route?
That is definitely not my experience. It calculates a route to the next point AND recalculates the routes between all remaining points. What I am unsure about is whether it handles shaping points added with the BaseCamp Insert tool differently from shaping points created by setting a via point to non-alerting.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:49 am @rbentnail

The other is to disable U turns. I don't like U turns disable, because in Yorkshire, it can go 15 miles without finding an alternative place to turn round without doing a U turn. It then doubles you back to do the same 15 miles again. I prefer to know that it is wanting to navigate me a different way by allowing U turns. Although irritating, it inform me what it is up to.
Disabling uturns is becoming a problem here. The states are modifying many roads so there are not true intersections anymore. Coming to a stop sign, in order to go left I have to go right and in about 500 yds make a uturn to go the direction I want to. It's becoming more and more imperative to have prompted recalculation and always either say NO or just ignore it.
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Re: Weird Routing Behaviour (2)

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:14 pm Yup! Having occasional via points in the route helps with this and with providing points that you can select to navigate to.
@jfheath and others, what do you know about the stripping of shaping points by a recalc? As you know, I have been averse to shaping points but am evolving, so I have a lot of them in the routes of my upcoming trip. I may change them to Via's if they might get stripped. Worth consideration may be whether non-alerting Via points are handled differently than inserted shaping points (BaseCamp).
I never thought about that- being handled differently depending on how they are entered in Base Camp. Hmm.... I think I'll try a couple things- change them all to alerting then back to shaping and then make every 4th or 5th one a via point.
Peobody wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:14 pm @rbentnail, it sounds like your track display may now be working. I sure hope so.
I've been playing with this today and track display seems much better, easier to see.
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