Loading MRA Routes Garmin Zumo XT

[epv]

Thank you guys very much for the detailed explanations. This helps a lot.

I'm also mostly concerned about routes with maybe 5 - 8 shaping points, mainly just to keep to a particular backroad rather than a freeway, or select between two roads that end up more or less the same place, so that when I reach a fork it will at least jog my memory about which one to take.

With basecamp for the most part if I let the XT recalculate based on those points it comes up with the same path as basecamp did (and I assume this would be the case for MRA too if I use the paid-level map), so I guess it would be nice to not worry about accidentally allowing a recalculation, and I'd like the security of knowing that if i do pick the other fork in the road it will eventually come up with a reasonable solution to get me to the destination rather than back to the fork.

[Peobody]

so I guess it would be nice to not worry about accidentally allowing a recalculation, and I'd like the security of knowing that if i do pick the other fork in the road it will eventually come up with a reasonable solution to get me to the destination rather than back to the fork.

There's the rub. If you chose the other fork, and then let the XT calculate, the result may be reasonable, but it may also be completely unreasonable, especially if there is a freeway nearby. The most aggravating thing for me about this is that it recalculates the entire remainder of the route rather than just to the next route point.

[epv]

There's the rub. If you chose the other fork, and then let the XT calculate, the result may be reasonable, but it may also be completely unreasonable, especially if there is a freeway nearby. The most aggravating thing for me about this is that it recalculates the entire remainder of the route rather than just to the next route point.

Ahhh, ok. Now I get it. That is aggravating. I suppose at that point one could stop navigation and restart, selecting a more reasonable entry point. Still shouldn't have to, though.

Is this behavior a deviation from the way other Garmin units work? I have both a Zumo XT and a Montana 700i at my disposal at the moment so I suppose I could test it.

[Stu]

You need to have enough shaping/waypoints in your route to force it to go the way you want regardless of if you go off route and it has to recalculate.

Another good tip is to show the track too so you can see if it's different

[epv]

So I've been experimenting a bit (i.e., driving the same path over and over like a lunatic) and as far as I can tell, every point on the route, whether it's a shaping point or a via point, is treated as a hard must-visit.

For instance, I created a simple route with a start, one shaping point in the middle, and a destination, being very careful to hit the starting point.
If I set out and then deviate a block over so as to miss the shaping point, it will do nothing but try to route me back to that missed shaping point, even if I drive straight to the destination; literally it will route me past and over the destination in order to get me back to the shaping point.

If I *don't* miss the shaping point, it recognizes when I reach the destination and stops navigation as expected. However, it also seems to need the destination to be reached from the correct direction, though I'm less certain of this.

Anyway I feel like I'm in crazy town, or like I'm fundamentally misunderstanding how all this is supposed to work, because I can't imagine a situation where this would be the right behavior.

[Mzokk]

Ok from the description of your test it might be too simple. Try conceiving a route with at least three or four shaping points and a via point. Normal behaviour is that if you skip a shaping point and it recalculates the route it will take you to the next closest shaping point on the magenta line. Try to make the next shaping point after the one you miss (and the unit recalculates the route) closer to you than the one you missed, or the unit will try to take you back to it until you are closer to the next shaping point on the magenta line. If you skip a via point the unit will try to take you back to it unless you use the skip button on the unit. I always have this shown on my navigation screen so that if I want to delete a via point I can. If you do this the unit should route you to the closest shaping point. My test route (because I have been extensively testing MRA and OSMand on Android auto on my Africa Twin as replacement for Garmin) is 85 miles with a start and finish point 2 via points and 20 odd shaping points routing round very minor roads (to test the XT and other options Faster route /faster road behaviour). The route has several options for me to test behaviour on missing shaping and via points. Always a good idea to create a track of the route as well so that you can see that the route is exactly as you've intended. Good to practice/check these things mind before you need to use them for real.

Screenshot 2025-02-20 232526.jpg (361.05 KiB) Viewed 599 times

Screenshot 2025-02-20 232657.jpg (119.25 KiB) Viewed 599 times

[epv]

Thanks - yeah, I was wondering if it was just that the distances involved in my tests are too small, since I'm testing in an urban neighborhood on a grid. Though I still can't imagine any reason why it would route me past the destination just to go back to a shaping point in the middle!
I should mention that I've only ever seen it ask if i wanted to skip a missed shaping point once, despite 8+ loops around the same circuit, and I don't know what I did differently that time.

I also wonder if maybe the radius around the end points is tiny and I have just been randomly hitting or missing them by being in the wrong position in the lane or something.

I probably don't have the patience to test with an hour-long route but next time I have occasion to go somewhere further away I'll set up some tests.

> or the unit will try to take you back to it until you are closer to the next shaping point on the magenta line.

this is my concern - will it try to take me back until i'm closer to the next *shaping* point, even if the actual destination is the closest point? I was literally stopped exactly at the destination (certainly within 5 meters) and it was *still* telling me to either do a U-turn or proceed to the next intersection and make a series of turns to get back to the missed shaping point, depending on whether I had U-turns allowed or not.

[jfheath]

@epv , @Mzokk

Good luck with trying to work out what the XT does.
If you like the challenge then stop reading now. I'm about to bore you with some answers.

There are a number of different situations.

1. If you create a route using the XT Trip Planner

This is when the XT is on its best behaviour. It behaves in a way which is similar to the Zumo 590 and 595 and 39x and 34x that came before it.

If you miss a Via point the XT will always try to get you to go back to it. It will not give up on this quest unless you press SKIP or you stop at the side of the road and restart the route by selecting Closest Entry Point. I reckon that the most common situation where this happens is if you plot the start point too close to the start of your ride. Then if the start is behind where the satnav thinks your bike is, or it hasn't got an accurate fix of your position, it thinks you haven't visited the start. It will forever try to get you to go back.

Skip. The Zumo maintains a list of your route points - shaping and via - that it has to visit in order. When you pass through the points, it moves on to the next point in the list and aims for that. When you press skip it removes the next via point or the next shaping point from the list - so you don't have to visit it. Pressing Skip also makes the Zumo recalculate the entire route. No big deal because rhe Zumo calculated the route anyway

If you miss a Shaping Point, The XT will also try to get you to visit it and each time you ignore an instruction to go and visit it, it will recalculate another way to get you to go back. Exactly like it does with a Via Point.

EXCEPT if you join the plotted magenta line that is drawn on the map after the shaping point that you have missed, it will carry on navigating ahead and forget about the missed shaping point. So for example, put a shaping point a mile up a side road. The route turns off the main road, visits the shaping point and then returns back to the main road. On the be as you approach the junction, the magenta line goes off to the side, but it also continues ahead. If you look closely, you will see that the two magenta lines are a slightly different shade. The route you should take is the brighter one - to visit the shaping point.
You don't. You say I'm not going to turn right up that side road, just to turn round and come back. So you carry on the main road and ignore the satnav instruction. Immediately the satnav spots that you are on the magenta line. You have only missed a shaping point, or two, or three so the dull magenta line ahead suddenly becomes bright and it never tries you take you back

And yes, you are quite right - you have to visit the route point from the direction that the route is plotted on the map.

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The Video Below shows a Saved Route. I am at a roundabout, and the stanav is telling me to take the 2nd exit to visit a shaping point further down the road (B6160). I ignore it and take the third exit. Just after the pause (0:18) - the missed shaping point comes into view, and up ahead, you can see that the route is going to take me back to that missed shaping point. At (0:38) you can see the shaping point that the XT is aiming for. You can see the white arrow asking me to turn left. Beyond the white arrow you can see a second shaping point. (Remember, I should have taken the second exit at the roundabout, picked up the first shaping point near addingham and then continue to the second shaping point. So the stanav is still wanting me to visit the shaping point - even though the 2nd one is just beyond the junction. That is exactly correct. I plotted it. The satnav is taking me to it. But I don't turn left, I continue ahead. The satnav doesn't care because I am on the magenta route, and it was 'only' a shaping point - and it recalculates the route to the next shaping point - but only becasue I have joined the magenta route after the first shaping point. (you can see the route colour change shade to indicate the current section)




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if automatic recalculation is turned off, the satnav goes quiet. No more instruction until you either visit the via point, or rejoin the magenta line after missing only Shaping points.


I'll start another post for the next scenario.

[epv]

I was hoping you'd chime in, as you seem to be a Grand Authority on how these things work!

> EXCEPT if you join the plotted magenta line that is drawn on the map after the shaping point that you have missed, it will carry on navigating ahead and forget about the missed shaping point.

Ahh-- so if the destination is right next to you might not have enough distance to travel toward it before it decides you're on route again and forgets about the missed shaping point.

> And yes, you are quite right - you have to visit the route point from the direction that the route is plotted on the map.

I wonder if this explains one of the results I saw. I put my destination on the opposite corner of a nearby city park, and a shaping point on one side. So it's equidistant to reach the destination whichever side of the park I follow, but the shaping point is of course on only one side. If I set out from the starting point, follow the line, pass the shaping point, turn to reach the destination, all good.

If I set off from the starting point along the other side of the park, missing the shaping point, it continuously directs me back to the shaping point, devising weirder and weirder ways to get there, even after I've reached the route's final destination. It never realizes I've reached the destination at all, and never asks me about skipping a shaping point. (this happens with both routes created on the XT and routes created on MRA and imported, not unexpected)

From what you just describe, it sounds like just reaching the destination doesn't count - unless you reached it from the direction of the previous shaping point, even if you missed the shaping point. To me, this is insane behavior, but I guess it's a design choice!

I don't have much love for google but sometimes I just throw up my hands and wish it could just work like google maps!

[jfheath]

I''ll respond to your reply later @epv and continue with my essay.

2. A GPX file is created and IMPORTED to the XT

This includes transferring via the Drive App.

Here is where the fun really starts. In some situations (not all) if the route recalculates, the behaviour of the route alters. One of those situations is after you have pressed Skip. The full route is always recalculated by the XT and it always changes the subsequent behaviour. I should qualify my use of the word 'always'. Always refers to the many tests that I have carried out.

After Skip, the route will probably look the same as before if the Zumo calculated the route after it was imported. Basecamp routes and MRA gpx v1.2 are different - they send the Zumo the exact plot of the route with thousands of invisible route points - one every few metres on twisty roads. The XT does not recalculate those routes on import unless the maps are different - or in Basecamp there is an option to tell the Zumo to recalculate the route.

That means that if the XT does recalculate such a route, the result is likely to be very different from the original. It will still pass through all of the shaping and via points, but it will probably head for faster roads if it can. That may mean visiting a shaping point and then turning back to a faster road. If you load a track of the route as well as the route itself and show it on the map in a different colour (black stands out), you can spot whether the route has been recalculated. Link Page


A well behaved 'saved' route will always treat the next route point as its target and calculate a route to get you there. So if you are forced to deviate, you know where it is heading - your next route point.

If skip has been pressed at any time, the route will have been recalculated - even if it didn't actually alter the route. But it may now head for faster roads if it gets half a chance - thats what the XT does. But the way that the route behaves will now change.

It no longer treats the next route point as its target.
It treats the route itself as the target.

This is not a problem if you stay on the route. But if you are forced to deviate it can become a big issue. Or not.

Let me explain those 'target' sattements. Suppose that sometime (any time) after pressing Skip - you have been forced to leave the route which is heading north. Perhaps a Road closure. You are now on a road that is 2 miles to the left (west) of your original route but still heading north.

A 'saved' route would find a way to get you from where you are to the next route point. That route point is what it is heading for.

An imported route will try to get you to the closest point of the original route. So its target is somewhere ahead on the original route - not the route point. So it will plot a route to take you back to the right (east) at the first opportunity.

That is pretty impressive. Each time you ignore its instruction, it calculates another way to get you back onto the new closest point on the original route - by finding another road to head you east. You ignore it until you think you've gone far enough to get past the road works and then may decide to take its latest suggestion. It works. It works surprisingly well.

But here is the behaviour which makes no sense at all when you are on the bike. While you have been heading north on the parallel road, you have actually been getting closer to the next route point. It makes sense for you to carry on in that direction. You are thinking that is where it is heading for - the next route point. But the behaviour of the routing has changed - becasue the behaviour of the routing has changed. The next route point is not the target. The traget is still the closest point on the original route. So if you are now 3 miles from the route point, XT is trying to get you to head 2 miles to the east to get to the original route and then(say) 3 miles to follow the original route which just happens to pass through the next route point.

That behaviour is very clever.

If you want to see it in action, then create a track of a route using Basecamp or MRA. Load the track into the Zumo and use the spanner option to convert it to a trip. The new 'Trip' will appear in trip planner, and you can load it just like any othe point-to-point route. Except it has no shaping points and no via points except a start and a finish.

It issues instructions at every junction and it will never recalculate the original magenta line. It just 'deletes' the original that is behind you. So if you have to deviate from the route onto a road that is running parallel but 2 miles to the left - it does the same as described before but it is now a bit more obvious. The XT finds the closest point on the original route ahead. It sets that point as its next target and plots a new section of route from your current position to that target. Any section of the original route that has been missed out is deleted.

If you want to see the XT continually spot the closes point when you have wandered off a track - simply load the track and select Go ! See this link

You have to try the Track-Trip method to see how good it is, but it has a couple of serious issues.

• If you are following a long narrow circular route - elliptical - in a clockwise direction, left side first heading north and you deviate to the right from the plotted route - it finds the closest point of the original. It may find the route heading south and miss out most of your tour.
• If you turn up a road where there is no closest point ahead, the only point that it can find is behind you. It plots a new section of route to take you back, and that becomes the new route. Ignore it, it does the same. The closest pojnt of the current route is always just behind you. It is a situation from which it cannot escape - not until you reach a point where you are closer to joining the original route than you are the point that is just behind you.

It is easy to understand what the XT is doing with a track-trip (my term for a track that has been converted to a trip). But that is exactly the behaviour that you see if you have pressed skip and some time later you deviate from the route. I said that when you press skip, the nature of the route changes. It seems as though it has started to use the Track-Trip algorithm.

As a consequence of that, the route points are largely irrelevant. The route has been calculated to go through all of the route points in the correct order, but they are no longer the priority. Getting back to the closest point is the priority.

In a 'Saved' Route as in my first scenario - you can use the Skip button to see which point the XT is heading for next. It says - do you want to skip 'Coffee Stop'. Very handy. Select No. But that is useful for checking where the satnav is trying to take you. Each time you psss through a point, it removes that point from its list.

In this new scenario with the imported route, the route points remain in the list. It doesn't recognise that you have passed through them. But that's ok. After pressing skip, you are no longer following a point to point route. It seems that you are following a track - trip.

One other side effect of this is that although the route will take you to the route points, because that is where the route was plotted, the route point itself has become irrelevant, and as you drive past the road end where you were supposed to turn off to visit a route point, the route point disappears, You have not followed the route so it recalculates to find a new way to get to the route which is immediately under your front wheel, and the route behind you is deleted.


In this next video I am carrying out the same test as before. The route this time has been imported and I included a route point very early on in the route - just so that I could skip it. Now the nature of the route has been changed. It is behaving like a Track-Trip would. When I deviate from the plotted route, it is only concerned about getting me to the closest point. Not to the route point.

So I am at the roundabout. In the first 5 seconds you can see the sahping point near addingham, and that I am being instructed to take the second exit of the roundabout. At (0:13) I take the third exit, and the route recalculates as it did in the previous video). But when the screen zooms out, the shaping point near addingham no longer exists. There is no way to turn round on the A65 that I am now on, so I have to go tot he next junction - but it doesn't bother to try to take me back. The closest point of the route isn't back in addingham - its up ahead at the junction. It looks as though it is trying to take me to the next shaping point - but it isn't. That just happens to be on the route.



The video stops as the Via Point in the middle of the field comes into view. It begs the question - what happens next. I have videos of that for a Saved Route. It wants me to go into the field to visit the point. I go past. It wants me to go back. In short - you must visit Via Points. That means that they have to be carefully placed. If you place them slightly off road and the satnav expects you to trun left before reaching it - it doesn't spot that you are close enough to have visitied it. Go past it with it recognising that fact. and the satnav is forever trying to get you to go back there.






But this is what happens at the same point if the nature of the routing has changed. (I pressed Skip)




The Zumo no longer cares about visiting the VIa Point - it is finding the closest point of the route - and that is up ahead. Notice that it deletes all of the route that has gone before.

There must be other circumstances when the route changes like this. Other's on the forum have come across it. I have not been able to prove or disprove any of them. It could be quite useful in this mode. But it is not the picture that is in you head - unless you know about it - and that will be confusing becasue you think you know what it should be doing.

Well - now you do !


Section 3 follows