XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

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fatfeet
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by fatfeet »

Test 5 & 6 and the other Track Trip tests confuse me. You say you converted to a trip (a track-trip) and are running that but you say that skip is available.
Track trips don't have any route points - via or shaping. The have a Begin and an End. and thats it. They should not recalculate, but they will calculate a way to get you back to the route if you deviate if auto recalc is turned on.
ok I have been out and carried out the exact same test as yesterday, and @jfheath was indeed correct, there is no option to skip anything, while using tack-trip, so my bad on that one. I must have got my notes mixed up. I will amend the above post.

What I did try today, as an experiment, was to skip the "begin: via point, This action recalculated the whole route, and funnily enough routed down the detour route I was using for the tests.
also as another test, I set recalc to off, took my detour route and obviously XT went quiet, I drove couple hundred metres down the road stopped and then set recalc to on. I did not cancel the route before doing this, and when I went back to the navigation map, it did not reroute me, and stayed quiet until I rejoined the magenta line. To be expected I suppose.

there might be a lesson here, if you forget to set recalc to on, and you have already set off and passed over the "begin" via point, you will have to cancel the route first, before changing recalc to on, however, if when you restart it, and pick end, as there are no other via/shaping points, in effect, you will have skipped the "begin" via point, the route may change from your original, if you pick start it will route you back on yourself.

every day is a new learning day with this XT, but I like the challenge.✌️
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by jfheath »

Just a comment on this test - Test #4 B to A which has Shaping points and Via Points.

Image
Recalculation on. Pressed skip to avoid via point(marked on screen shot)
After I departed and turned off the A6 on to my detour route, the XT recalculated, initially wanting me to u-turn, I pressed skip next via point, and it calculated a new route along my detour route. all was well until I reached the junction where I should turn right to rejoin route. the XT wants me to turn left. the reason for this, is, that there is a shaping point about 400 metres down this road. I ignored the instructions to turn left. and turned right the XT knew I was back on the route and then forgot about the shaping point behind me, and continued instructions to end of route.
this is fine, as I knew where I was, however, if we are on a diversion route and do not know where we are in relation to the route, we would potentially follow the instructions only to have to turn back again.
This is normal, and is what I use for optional coffee stops. As here - I deliberately place the shaping point at the coffee stop, and a Via Point on the road that I will take whether I stop for coffee or not. The satnav tells me that I want to turn right. I know that I don't want a coffee, so I turn left. It isn't until I am on the road heading towards the next point that the Shaping Point is forgotten about.

Image


Actually, I think that you are wrong in your assumption that it is taking you to the Shaping Point behind you. It doesn't make a great deal of difference in this particular situation, but you have missed three shaping points, and I believe that it is trying to take you to the first shaping point of the three. At the junction of your screen shot, you are not yet on the magenta line and traveling in the correct direction.

However, I am surprised that it continued to navigate you along Marsh Lane, given that you had not yet visited any of the shaping points, given tha the first point is not far from where you deviated. (Not that I would fancy turning my fully loaded ST1300 around on Marsh Lane.

I tested the behaviour of 'Skip'. It simply removes the selected point from the list of points that it has to visit. It did not (when I tested it) remove any other points. There isn't another road to take you back to the A6 - so perhaps it chose to take you to the end of the road and then turn left to pick up the missed Shaping Points 1 2 and 3.

If you had turned left, it would not have had you turn back at the firs shaping point you came across. It wasn't heading for that one. You weren't on the magenta line as far as it was concerned - because you were heading in the wrong direction.

In fact, you truned right. As soon as you turned right, you were on the magenta line, heading int he correct direction, and you were in the same 'route section'. So it was happy to cancel the 3 shaping points. A 'Route Section' or 'Section of Route' is what I use to describe the part of a route that lies between two Via Points. Including any Shaping Points that are on it. If you look at the magenta line on the XT screen closely, you can see that each route section is terminated with a rounded end.

A very useful tip when testing or when out in unknown territory:
If you have answered yes to Skip Confirmation in Settings->Map & Vehicle, then simply press the Skip button and it will display the name of the point that is next on its list. You can then cancel the Skip request.

This feature is why I am so fed up that Garmin alters the name of route points when it transfers or imports the route. (Unless they were created as Waypoints in Basecamp). And why I like to have either a sequence number or a 3 digit mileage at the start of the name.

I've found a way around this limitation - which I discussed here.

----------
Ps - Have you been over the Strines Road recently ?. I remember cycling from Doncaster towards Ladybower when I was 16. We had the common sense to realise that we would have to climb back up the hill from Ladybower, so instead of descending to Ladybower, we turned right (north) and returned Via Strines to Penistone. I remember a grotty, gravel strewn, potholed back lane and being very careful on many of the corners as it takes no effort at all to loose the front wheel on gravel on a push bike.

I went over there on the motorbike earlier this year. Beautiful smooth tarmac. A superb ride. A bit exciting on one tight hairpin - a roll of the dice is required as I needed both sides of the road to get round the left hand hairpin, without being able to see if anything was coming down.
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by fatfeet »

Actually, I think that you are wrong in your assumption that it is taking you to the Shaping Point behind you. It doesn't make a great deal of difference in this particular situation, but you have missed three shaping points, and I believe that it is trying to take you to the first shaping point of the three. At the junction of your screen shot, you are not yet on the magenta line and traveling in the correct direction.
I have read your way of placing via points after your stop and this works well for me, it's a great idea.
I think the point I was trying to make here, is that if we are in unknown territory, following a forced umleitung, which I have discovered these can be many miles. it is very easy to become disoriented and not know that turning left (in my example) takes you where you wanted to miss.

I am going to investigate this further, probably using edale, castleton, hope, snake pass etc, its possible to make some serious detours on this route and it will see how the XT plays up.

I was bit confused when you asked me about the strines road, having hairpins, then I realised you were talking about the road with the strines inn, and in answer to your question I have ridden it recently, it is a brilliant road, there are a couple of severe hairpins with cross camber thrown in for good measure, have to keep the revs up and be in correct gear or you're off.
Screenshot 2022-08-14 at 16.35.55.png
Screenshot 2022-08-14 at 16.35.55.png (263.24 KiB) Viewed 1008 times
I thought you were talking about the road to Strines in between New Mills and Marple, not the most exiting route TBF😂
Screenshot 2022-08-14 at 16.47.38.png
Screenshot 2022-08-14 at 16.47.38.png (435.93 KiB) Viewed 1008 times
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by jfheath »

Track trips are fixed in place - they do not alter. Except if recalc is on, it will plot a route from where you are to the closest point. As you move, the closest point alters, so it recalculate that bit, but the route after the closest pointcstays fixed.

A good way of observing this is to plot a route down a main road and deliberately ignore the route and take an almost parallel road.
Keep stopping and observe where it is taking you.

With recalc off, it is up to you to get back to the fixed magenta line. Wherever you join it, it will resume from their.

If you edit or change setting then the fixed route is complety discarded and replaced with a normal route calculated by the XT
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT2, XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes), Competent with Tread for XT2, Can use Explore for XT - but it offers nothing that I want !

Links: Zumo 590/5 & BC . . . Zumo XT & BC
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by fatfeet »

jfheath wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:02 pm Track trips are fixed in place - they do not alter. Except if recalc is on, it will plot a route from where you are to the closest point. As you move, the closest point alters, so it recalculate that bit, but the route after the closest pointcstays fixed.

A good way of observing this is to plot a route down a main road and deliberately ignore the route and take an almost parallel road.
Keep stopping and observe where it is taking you.

With recalc off, it is up to you to get back to the fixed magenta line. Wherever you join it, it will resume from their.

If you edit or change setting then the fixed route is complety discarded and replaced with a normal route calculated by the XT
agreed, I found out all these points while testing over the last couple of days, and with a bit of a nudge from you✌️ except to add
If you edit or change setting then the fixed route is completely discarded and replaced with a normal route calculated by the XT
if you change the settings when mid route and do not cancel route when making changes, the fixed route will remain the same.
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by Oop North John »

Oop North John wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:11 pm Does it make any difference if you're in the Car or Motorcycle profile?
And the answer is, it doesn't.

On a trip that was planned by using the "where to" feature it wanted me to go 1.8 miles to do 0.2 miles, on the same class of roads before it finally gave a logical routing :( Same avoidances as the motorcycle mode.

Time to take the XT back to 6.4 and not do any updates, till 6.60 comes out. Assuming that it will :?

Edit, forgot to mention that early on I turned right instead of left and it re-calculated happily, but when near to the destination, useless. Maybe the algorithms are being thrown by being near to a waypoint?
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by fatfeet »

Time to take the XT back to 6.4 and not do any updates, till 6.60 comes out. Assuming that it will :?
how would I do this please, and what difference will it make
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by Peobody »

I have reverted mine to 6.40. Unfortunately life keeps getting in the way of riding so can't comment on whether it was the right decision. I only did it because the XT behaved as expected when I was running 6.40. Instructions can be found here: app.php/ZXT-P85

Notes:
1. I am not recommending this. Do it at your own risk.
2. The "B03. Roll back software" option appears to roll you back to the version shipped on the device. Mine ended up on 6.30 when I used this option.
3. The "B02. install update from SD card" worked to install 6.40. The file location shown in the instructions is valid. I located and copied the file named B348400.update to the \Garmin directory on the SD card. I did not have to rename the file.
4. All routes and waypoints were deleted, as expected but I was surprised to find that my music had been deleted. I thought I had put it on the SD card but I must have put it in internal storage. Backup what you want!
5. A custom POI file was not affected.
6. I am a lousy tester so don't hold your breath waiting for me to report back about whether 6.40 "fixed" anything. I have found that I lack the discipline needed to create test routes and then go ride them. I might do it if I have a strong urge but doing it to satisfy a curiosity just doesn't seem to happen other than in simulation mode, which has a very limited usefulness. I am very grateful to those of you who are so good about testing and reporting.
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by Oop North John »

fatfeet wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:08 pm
Time to take the XT back to 6.4 and not do any updates, till 6.60 comes out. Assuming that it will :?
how would I do this please, and what difference will it make
See the post above, but for my test it replicates the stupidity of the recalculated routing at the end. Which is making me wonder if for me it's a mapping problem so will try it with my 590.
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Re: XT More Observations when Driving Routes.

Post by Peobody »

Oop North John wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:58 am See the post above, but for my test it replicates the stupidity of the recalculated routing at the end.
This is good to know but now has me really wondering why the XT behavior changed. It appeared to correspond with 6.50. My first 5000 miles with the XT were pretty good. Behavior was predictable. Not any more. A behavior change for me was increased usage of shaping points so now I'll go back to using Via points for route control and stops. I like the idea of using a shaping point for an optional stop so that will be my only usage of shaping points in the routes of my next trip.
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