Waypoint Announcements

[Ward]

I've just bought a new Zumo XT2 after 15 years of TomTom usage. I must admit to being massively underwhelmed. I bought it because it had a bigger, brighter screen. So far, that's all it has - the software is nowhere near as good or user-friendly as TomTom.

However, I can live with it - but the really annoying bit is the way it announces the location of the waypoints. When they get it through their heads that as motorcyclists we don't give a sh*t about way points, we need to be able to see them, but don't want to be told about them - just the route detail and changes/turns.

For some ridiculous reason there is no way of turning their announcement off, or is there ? can someone enlighten me ? there seem to be shaping points, via points, and way points (which don't get announced). How do you make a route with only dedicated "way points". I've made a demo route and every way point was announced. I create all my routes with "Tyre to Navigate" - been using it for years, and it's just about perfect. BUT, I can't see in preferences how to specify the type of waypoint.

I do a lot of routes for all sorts of people - since the Satnav was invented (over 25 years), and tried Basecamp on numerous occasions. Compared with Tyre, its rubbish. I've loaded Tread on my Android Mobile, and that too is just rubbish. Can anyone help ?

[jfheath]

Hi @Ward

I've just bought a new Zumo XT2 after 15 years of TomTom usage. I must admit to being massively underwhelmed. I bought it because it had a bigger, brighter screen. So far, that's all it has - the software is nowhere near as good or user-friendly as TomTom.

I can't comment on TomTom hardware or software. I had my hands on a TomTom for about half an hour once and I really didn't like the way that it did things. But that is not a fair assessment- - it is nowhere near enough time to get to grips with a product. But there is (was) a difference in the approach to routing.

However, I can live with it - but the really annoying bit is the way it announces the location of the waypoints. When they get it through their heads that as motorcyclists we don't give a **** about way points, we need to be able to see them, but don't want to be told about them - just the route detail and changes/turns.

'We' is a bit broad brush. I will assume that you mean to say "I". Different people have different requirements.

First of all - lets be clear about 'Waypoints'.

Many people - including some navigation software developers - use the term 'waypoint to mean any point on a route.
Some people use the term waypoint to mean a point that announces.
Neither are correct when dealing with Garmin and Zumos.

These interpretations of the term 'waypoint' differ from Garmin's use of the term and the way the the term is used in GPX files.
A Waypoint is a saved location. Not a term that means any point in a route.

To Garmin users, a Waypoint is a location that has been saved with position info (lat, long) a name, and a whole host of other useful snippets - eg a symbol, an address, a phone number, a figure for elevation, ..... A waypoint can be used as part of a route. Or it can just be stored away in case you want to make use of it. Some software providers use the term Point of Interest in similar way.

When you create Waypoints, and transfer them to any Zumo, they will appear in the list of 'Favourites' in the UK or 'Saved' in the USA on Zumos prior to the XT2, or in the list of 'Waypoints' on the XT2. Other route points do not appear in these lists.

A route consists of a start, and end, any number of Via Points (within a reasonable number) and any number of shaping points (within a reasonable bigger number). You can place a point to form part of a route on an ad-hoc basis (ie it isn't saved before hand - you just point and click.) These points are not waypoints. If you want a term to use for any point on a route, 'Route Point' is as good as any.

But you can, use any Waypoint when building a route.

Any of these route points can be set to be either a Via Point, or a Shaping Point.
And it doesn't matter whether the point was created as a Waypoint or as an ad-hoc point as far as the route is concerned.

The Zumos 595, XT and XT2 have an annoying habit. It seems as though they use fuzzy logic on your route points and move them to a point that they know about. They don't move far, but particularly with the XT2, they have been observed to move onto different roads. They also change the name given to the route point.
BUT - because they cannot change the location, name or other details of a saved Waypoint, it makes the use of genuine Waypoints much more attractive.

Via points appear on the Zumo screen as flags. Usually orange flags. They alert as you approach and as you arrive.
Shaping points appear on the route as small blue discs. When you approach or arrive at a shaping point - nothing happens.

It sounds to me that in your situation, you have used Via Points. So you will get lots of commentary from the Zumo as you ride along. And yes - it is irritating if that happens - but it is a case of getting to know how the Zumo behaves, rather than treating it as a fault.

Shaping points and via points are also treated differently by the XT2 during navigation. For example - suppose you have a route plotted along a main road and part way along you have placed a route point which is to the left - just up a side road. The plotted route visits this route point, and then turns around and comes back to the point where you turned off the main road.

Ok - so you are following this route, and for whatever reason you decide not to detour to the plotted point. You don't want to go there; it was placed there by accident; its in the middle of the field becsuse google maps aren't quite the same as Garmin maps.

If that point is a Via Point, the Zumo will alert you to the approaching left hand turn. You ignore the instruction and ride past the road end. You are on the plotted route, but the next thing it will do is demand that you turn round and go back to it. You plotted the route. You plotted a point that you wanted to visit. The Zumo is navigating correctly.

If that point is a shaping point, the satnav will alert you about the left hand turn up ahead. You ride past the road end and you are on the plotted route. But this time, the Zumo doesn't care that you haven't visited the shaping point. Because you are on the plotted route after the shaping point, it continues to navigate ahead.

It is easy to switch the status of a route point from via to shaping or from shaping to via. Regardless of whether it was created as a saved Waypoint, or as an ad-hoc, point-and-click point.

So generally speaking - a typical day's route will have maybe 5 Via Points (start, end, morning, lunch and afternoon breaks). Points that you know that you will definitely visit and ride through (so not in a car park)., The rest will be shaping points to make the route stick to the roads that you want to ride.

For some ridiculous reason there is no way of turning their announcement off, or is there ? can someone enlighten me ? there seem to be shaping points, via points, and way points (which don't get announced). How do you make a route with only dedicated "way points". I've made a demo route and every way point was announced. I create all my routes with "Tyre to Navigate" - been using it for years, and it's just about perfect. BUT, I can't see in preferences how to specify the type of waypoint.

I've answered most of this in my previous reply. But I'll quote and write a comment in bold black against your blue question

For some ridiculous reason there is no way of turning their announcement off, or is there ? can someone enlighten me ?
Shaping points do not announce. Via Points do announce. Use the option to change your via points to shaping points.

There seem to be shaping points, via points, and way points (which don't get announced).
There are shaping points and via points in a route.
Waypoints are special saved locations. You may use them in a route. But although they keep their Waypoint properties (name, address, phone number etc, all that matters is whether they are set as a via point or as a shaping point.

So when you create a route you can point to a place on the map and click. No preparation needed. Call these 'ad-hoc' route points
Or you can create special locations and save them. These are Waypoints. These can be added to a route list. No need to point and click, the Waypoint has already got its location saved.

So :
You can have 'ad-hoc' route points (point and click) that are Via Points - Via points announce
You can have ad-hoc route points that are shaping points - Shaping points do not announce.
You can have pre-saved Waypoints that are via points - Via points announce
You can have pre-saved Waypoints that are shaping points - Shaping points do not announce.

How do you make a route with only dedicated "way points". I've made a demo route and every way point was announced. I create all my routes with "Tyre to Navigate" - been using it for years, and it's just about perfect. BUT, I can't see in preferences how to specify the type of waypoint.

I need to take a look at TyreToNavigate in order to see exaclty what it is doing.


Ok, I've come back and edited this reply. Your question didn't make sense to me, but having installed Tyre, I can see your confusion.
Waypoints - Tyre uses this term to mean any route point.
"Dedicated way point". Meant nothing to me. "Dedicated Route Point" still meant nothing.
It turns out that Tyre uses the term 'Dedicated' to mean "must visit" and/or "Announces when navigating.
So A "Dedicated Waypoint" is just a via point.
They use the term "Free Waypoint" to refer to a Shaping Point.
So in your route if every route point was announced, then they must have been set as Via points - orange flags.
But you can set them to be shaping points - as I discovered later and reported in my post below.

So as mentioned previously, the gpx file that is created contains the correct terminology so the Zumo will plot the correct type of route point. Providing you use v1.1 to save the file. V1.0 was created before Garmin started distinguishing between Via Points and Shaping Points - so all route points are sent as Vias. So all will announce no matter what you set them as in Tyre.

[jfheath]

Ok @Ward - I've had a quick look at the Tread app. Yes it is the one that I looked at once before.

A few things to note.

Tread uses the term 'Waypoint' to mean any point in a route.

This is not unusual. Many people do that and many programs that create routes use the term Waypoint like that.
Tyre is one, Kurviger, MyRouteApp also add to the confusion.

But according to Garmin's definition, a waypoint is a location of interest that you create, name and save before even starting to create a route. They are then available to use in a route if you wish. Once added to a route they will default to being via points, but they can be changed to shaping points. They always keep their waypoint properties though - name, location, phone number, address etc.

So instead I will refer to points in a route as 'Route Points'.

I created a route with 7 route points and went looking for how to set them as either via or shaping.

It took a while, but I eventually found it. Two little icons alongside the list of route points (Headed 'Waypoints' in Tyre), which when clicked alter the status of the currently selected route point or all of the selected group of route points.

The pop up description when you hover over these icons says:

Via Point (Mandatory Waypoint) - Garmin calls this a Via Point. Some peopel refer to it as an alerting route point.
Shaping Point (Free Waypoint) - Garmin calls this a Shaping Point - some people refer to it as a silent route point.

In the screen capture of the Tyre program below, these two buttons are shown high-lighted.

Shaping Point - blue circle
Via point - orange rectangle

Tread Via & Shaping.png (17.79 KiB) Viewed 153 times

I took a look at the GPX file that Tyre created: ( I used v 1.1)

My GPX file contained no Waypoints - as defined by the gpx markup commands <wpt>

My gpx file contained 5 Via points (including the start and end).
My gpx file contained 2 shaping points.

So exactly as I had specified in my Tyre route - except the start and finish - which in Tyre were shown with the shaping point icon. Start and finish must be Via Points. The save as gpx option clearly corrected this.

Vias are shown in Tread in the Route Point List (it is headed 'Waypoints') They have a red chequered flag icon.
Shaping points are shown as the double yellow arrow icon on the Tread screen

So to make all of your points shaping points except start and finish - click on the 2nd item. Hold the ctrl key down click on the next to last item. Click the doubleheaded arrow icon.

Then make a few of them Via Points. The stopping places perhaps. I like to put these at the exit of the stopping place - on a road that I will definitley take after setting off again.

The gpx file also contained the gpx commands for a track of the route.

---------------------

Now - I noticed that somewhere (it might have been in the help pages) Tread was suggesting that you have to have a new Via points after you have used 29 shaping points. Whoever said that, or wherever I read it - it is complete rubbish.

The XT has a restriction on the number of Via Points in a route. If you have more than 31 it will split the route into 2 or more smaller routes. Each section will start with the same Via Point that finished the previous section. And each end via point will be the same via point that starts the next section.

The XT cannot cope with a route that has more than 29 via point as well as a start and end. (So 31 in total)

But routes would typically have only a handful of Vias. Mine rarely exceed 5 vias, as I described. Sometimes I'll put in a few more becasue I want an announcement. In half a mile arriving at "Possible coffee stop".

Anyway - if you see that message on Tread. It is not correct.

@FrankB will be interested in this comment :
I haven't got a clue why every single gpxx route point extension in the gpx file has exactly the same subclass -
<gpxx:Subclass>0600D88F0C0249D70B00211600001F001F00</gpxx:Subclass>
Clearly a default - but I haven't seen one like that before.

Hope this helps.

[FrankB]

@FrankB will be interested in this comment :
I haven't got a clue why every single gpxx route point extension in the gpx file has exactly the same subclass -
<gpxx:Subclass>0600D88F0C0249D70B00211600001F001F00</gpxx:Subclass>
Clearly a default - but I haven't seen one like that before.

Doesn't look right to me. Could it be that all route points were initially copies of the same Way, or Via point? Or the trip doesn't use the City Navigator map? EG Michelin? That are the only possible reasons I can think of now.

[jfheath]

I forgot about the maps. Tread - which I really have no time for, but had investigated years ago - uses OSM maps or Google maps.

My test route was from OSM.

What was curious was that instead of having a subclass line followed by a list of gpxx points to which that subclass applied, it had the same subclass line for every single gpxx ghost point.

Just a point of interest really.

[Ward]

A massive thank you for the time you have spent on your most comprehensive reply

Upon further investigation it appears that my test route was one previously created in Tyre whilst the preferences were set to the device as TomTom, and then saved as a .GPX file instead of the default .ITN version for TomTom. That gave me all Via Points.

Having now successfully reset Tyre to operate for Garmin, I have created a second test route and it shows the start and finish as Via Points, but all the intermediate points along the way as shaping points (a small circle). This will then appear to function perfectly as I would wish.

Your investigation into Tyre, and showing how to change the status/properties of the intermediate point is invaluable, thank you again ! I had never seen this before with Tyre (after many years of use) as this is never a part of operation with the device set to TomTom.

I'll test my second test route when I get a moment, and I think this should solve everything for me